It's balanced that way so quasar only stack can't stomp everything with free fighters. You have buildable sqadrons for some reason. Playing as Empire, I get overwhelmed on defence with lone garrison when attacked by Calamary doomstack. AI tends to use mix of MC75 and MC80 with bubble shield most of the time and they always have fighter superiority.

MC-80 is roughly equivalent in role to Imperial star destroyer - ignoring for the moment that isd get to field more fighters than mon cala does now. If you roll up to a lone garrison with four isd, you -should- curb stomp them.

The bubble shield ship, the Justice class, has half as many turbolasers as other classes and in trade it gets a z-95, an r-41 and a y-wing. The -75 has -no- large-grade turbolasers, a flight of z-95 and a y-wing. It has 12 light untargetable close-range turbolasers and some torpedo tubes.

If you hit a fleet like that with some isd, it absolutely will melt, and likewise if you garrison some frigates and gunships to help counter the bombers they are going to be more or less matched by a couple victories. And if you see any x-wings at all in that fleet you are playing the wrong version :p

I should also point out that black sun has a much stronger fighter presence than empire does. And saying, "I played empire and I lost to the rebels so they are overpowered and need a nerf" is not the same as saying, "I played rebels and their traditional strength, fighters, has already been nerfed so hard it's not viable any more." Empire has tons and tons of tools to deal with fighters already. And if you're worried about quasar cheese (queso?) just implement a per-fleet limit of like 3 instead of making fighters suck, carriers suck and the whole faction into an Empire clone.

it isn't possible to limit quasars to 3 to a fleet.
The intention is that a quasar is a one time investment to have some extra fighter support throughout many battles, but if you want a strong fighter presence (encouraged as rebels) you should build individual squadrons. Rebel fighter tactics are absolutely still viable, you just have to pay for them now.

Rebel fighters are pretty darn strong + they have excellent corvettes frigs crusiers and capitals. Your carriers carry ok stuff but if u wanna get your best stuff u gotta build them. Imps do also get some really strong fighters too and BS has some strong options with tech. Rebel A wings are great dogfighters and B or H wings are outstanding. CR90s and bruhtoks do darn well at fighter screening with dp20s shredding corvettes and frigs.

build fighters and corvettes, my guy. X-wings covered by a couple DP20s to eliminate any anti-fighter ships the enemy has should clean up any fighter problems you may have

Originally posted by General Brooks:

it isn't possible to limit quasars to 3 to a fleet.
The intention is that a quasar is a one time investment to have some extra fighter support throughout many battles, but if you want a strong fighter presence (encouraged as rebels) you should build individual squadrons. Rebel fighter tactics are absolutely still viable, you just have to pay for them now.

What I'm hearing is that you don't -want- carriers to be especially viable as rebels, and that's working as intended. But ultimately, it greatly devalues the whole idea of freeing sullust, since these ships are basically a quest reward for a quite difficult ground battle.

And since that wasn't enough they're now also locked behind a 30k credit, 10-minute timer to get a ship that is intentionally full of suck. Thanks!

Proposed fix: Global build limit 3 each for quasar fire and liberator carrier. Lock the Dauntless behind a sullust-only planetary shipyard like the Bakuran Destroyer and the Corellian Battleship. Then lock the Liberator behind a 20k-cost, t2 upgrade for that one shipyard.

Now you have a rare ship that can only be built on one planet, and you can make it awesome instead of intentionally bad. I'd rather have -one- global limit quasar fire and liberator, and have them be fantastic ships, than have these awkward wannabe-carriers that don't do anything well.

Anyway, thanks for the mod, I've been playing it to exhaustion the last few days. I don't have any problems with the MC-80 line being battleships first and carriers a distant second and that's how I've done my current playthrough (week 105 and down to the last 9 planets I need to clean up).

I still don't see the point in spending two or three weeks' income on paid fighters that I will use once, and then the enormous amounts of flak, corvettes and interceptors that the ai always has will absolutely wreck them. I can't even take stations with them - all the stations have flak. And as far as I know you can't win this game by playing defensively. You -have- to go out and wreck stations. I generally can deploy my pre-built fighters only once, and that tells me that the economics of buying them just doesn't make sense. The empire can build star destroyers faster than I can build (and lose) fighters.

There is one exception to that - this game I've built a handful of z-95's to help beef up my borders and deter ai attacks. It sort of seems to work. If nothing else, they're the closest thing to free.

I've seen your posts on our discord so I will let the conversation continue there rather than here, since its a better platform for this sort of thing. I don't agree with all of what you've said but I'm certainly open to the idea that Sullust tech needs to be cheaper.

I completely agree with direstorm. I think the rebel versus black sun match up for space battles is very frustrating as the rebels struggle with the black sun garrison as opposed to the actual black sun fleet in my experience. This expands into ground battles to some degree as several black sun turrets completely shut down the rebel hit and run speed forces due to the relative scarcity of repair buildables and also shut down rebel infantry with the splash damages of their turrets. While I always leave the black sun on whenever I play the mod, they are definitely a faction I dislike playing against since the best "counters" to the black sun are either inaccessible or not cost effective to field on a larger scale.

On your first point I agree that black sun stations have a lot of anti fighter options through their own flak and fighters. But you can use fighter tactics elsewhere on the battlefield, and that collection of anti fighter stuff will die pretty easily to all the free capital ships rebels start with and get given. This also feels fairly thematic, I think pirates should be stronger against small ships and die more easily to capital ships.
On the second, I think you just need to change your tactics. Black Sun turrets really aren't that great and in 2.10 they can't be rebuilt, so I don't see the issue with them. Rebels get great vehicles that only need to worry about the torpedo turrets.

Originally posted by General Brooks:

On your first point I agree that black sun stations have a lot of anti fighter options through their own flak and fighters. But you can use fighter tactics elsewhere on the battlefield, and that collection of anti fighter stuff will die pretty easily to all the free capital ships rebels start with and get given. This also feels fairly thematic, I think pirates should be stronger against small ships and die more easily to capital ships.
On the second, I think you just need to change your tactics. Black Sun turrets really aren't that great and in 2.10 they can't be rebuilt, so I don't see the issue with them. Rebels get great vehicles that only need to worry about the torpedo turrets.

Thank you for responding to my post. I have been putting off a new campaign of AOTR despite the relatively recent release due to school, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it out as of yet. I do recall the turrets being monsters in 2.9 and I remember loathing the match up on ground and was simply going off of my recollection of the previous version.

the BS grenade turr did get nerfed a bit in 2.10

its simple carriers arent viable anymore. and havent been for a while.

Until we get a hyperspace retreat for carriers, i just dont use them, its a useless unit.

keeping carriers behind ur flee works well

fleet