Victoria 3

Victoria 3

[1.10] Tech & Res
 This topic has been pinned, so it's probably important
Mattia10  [developer] 31 Jul @ 11:50pm
Tech&Res Pop Growth Future Mechanic
Hi! I'd love to hear your feedback on this idea. (Tech & Res 1.2)

In short, I don't like how population in 1.2 works, despite all the triggers, events, and changes in the definition file. In 1880 and 1930, population growth seems to slow, but after 1890 and 1940, new medical-related events keep it high. But at least it's better than the vanilla game.

- The "vanilla" SoL curve for population growth is too high, and rich countries experience exponential growth until 1970, especially European ones, while poor countries continue to grow slowly (India, China, Brazil, Indonesia), reaching too fast an high level of SoL.

- The "Tech & Res 1.2" SoL curve for population growth makes things more realistic: the behavior of rich countries is actually very good, while poor countries grow faster than "Vanilla," but not as fast as in the real world (India and China do +4M in the 50s, in the real world +15M). Brazil and Indonesia have a small buff.
And then there's the real problem: semi-rich countries, those that, due to the AI's stupidity, always stay around 20 SoL throughout the game and their population continues to grow exponentially. (This often happens with Spain, Austria, Belgium, and Russia.)

The problem is simply that Vic 3 SoL is unable to simulate population growth after 1930... and rightly so, it ends in 1936.

Theoretically, the SoL is proportional to pop growth until the SoL is less than 12/13.
- The mortality rate drops until 12/13 of the SoL, then flatlines (as in Vanilla), but over time it can only decrease thanks to technology and medicine. (As in Tech & Res).
- The birth rate is the most problematic, because, after 12/13 of SoL, it should no longer be inversely proportional to the SoL, but is inversely proportional to a counter that starts, for example, with a bonus of +40% births.

This counter advances over time based on factors such as:
1. Time (How many years since you reached 12 SoL)
2. SoL (Obviously, if it is high, it accelerates the process of birth rate declining)
3. Literacy (Accelerates the process)
4. Immigration, slavery, and multiculturalism (Slows the process)
5. Autocratic/oligarchic governments (Slows the process)

The further it goes, the lower the birth rate. Therefore, even if you're Spain, Austria, or Belgium and you reached 12 SoL in 1870 but still have 19 SoL in 1970, your birth rate is low, not high.
For example, countries like the USA, which had 12 SoL in 1850, will theoretically have a high birth rate in 1970 if they've been feeding their population with immigration during this period.

It might seem confusing, but shifting the question from "How much SoL do you have?" to "How long has it been since you passed SoL 12 and what have you done in the meantime?" It is the only strategy to create a realistic population boom window after which there is a decline.
Actually, this method is much less game broken and controllable by the player than Vanilla SoL one, which will remain but will be a little less relevant.

This in the game would be simulated through a semi-hidden journal entry that updates itself each year based on the factors previously listed.
Last edited by Mattia10; 21 Aug @ 12:48pm
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
ZremlE 8 Aug @ 12:15pm 
This seems like a really cool mechanic! For me demographics really matter and it's great that you're taking the time to make it more in-depth!

If it's possible to mod, having higher birth rates for rural populations would be a cool mechanic, as farmers tend to have more kids than factory workers, probably with miners in-between. This could be useful when it comes to high and low fertility states which is usually determined by urbanization these days.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to this update in particular! So great work and thoughts, more accurate demographics for the modern period is a great addition to an already great mod!
Tetra 19 Aug @ 7:21am 
Another thing, if possible, is to calculate the wealth disparity, in this case the SoL since calculating "wealth" is difficult, and then factoring that in. Example is the boomers which suddenly was this massive generation followed by lower fertility rates after wealth inequality grew again
Very much needed, and a welcome addition! That said, it would be nice if there was a way to 'turn back the clock' in some capacity, rather than just slowing it down from lower SoL/literacy/government form.
Last edited by CordialVillain; 19 Aug @ 7:20pm
luluddof 20 Aug @ 6:47am 
I apologize in advance if there is any misunderstanding because I use a translator, not speaking English fluently.

I played a game with Russia that I really liked, but for me, Russia should start at the pre-industrial stage in demography, it would be more in line with the Russian demographic boom of the time,and to the very agricultural and feudal Russian society of the time which was clearly on the economic, social and demographic level (mortality, especially infantile) at the pre-industrial stage.

finally this is only my opinion. but know that this mechanic is great just as much as your mod.
Mattia10  [developer] 20 Aug @ 7:44am 
Originally posted by luluddof:
I apologize in advance if there is any misunderstanding because I use a translator, not speaking English fluently.

I played a game with Russia that I really liked, but for me, Russia should start at the pre-industrial stage in demography, it would be more in line with the Russian demographic boom of the time,and to the very agricultural and feudal Russian society of the time which was clearly on the economic, social and demographic level (mortality, especially infantile) at the pre-industrial stage.

finally this is only my opinion. but know that this mechanic is great just as much as your mod.
Hi, you're quite right about that. The fact that Russia is starting in phase two of the demographic transition is purely due to the game's internal balance and the large amount of arable land available, which, as Vic 3 is programmed, accelerates population growth.
Mattia10  [developer] 20 Aug @ 7:46am 
Originally posted by CordialVillain:
Very much needed, and a welcome addition! That said, it would be nice if there was a way to 'turn back the clock' in some capacity, rather than just slowing it down from lower SoL/literacy/government form.
Hi and thank you!
I know, but every attempt made in the real world has never been successfu ahaha...
At most, as another comment mentioned, laws could be added that provide birth subsidies outside of the demographic stages' mechanism.
Last edited by Mattia10; 20 Aug @ 7:47am
Mattia10  [developer] 20 Aug @ 7:57am 
Originally posted by ZremlE:
This seems like a really cool mechanic! For me demographics really matter and it's great that you're taking the time to make it more in-depth!

If it's possible to mod, having higher birth rates for rural populations would be a cool mechanic, as farmers tend to have more kids than factory workers, probably with miners in-between. This could be useful when it comes to high and low fertility states which is usually determined by urbanization these days.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to this update in particular! So great work and thoughts, more accurate demographics for the modern period is a great addition to an already great mod!

Thanks for the feedback!
If I add secondary mechanics in the future, I might add one that gives a small birth bonus with a high grain output and a death reduction bonus with a high pharmaceutical output.

Originally posted by Tetra:
Another thing, if possible, is to calculate the wealth disparity, in this case the SoL since calculating "wealth" is difficult, and then factoring that in. Example is the boomers which suddenly was this massive generation followed by lower fertility rates after wealth inequality grew again

Hi! I think it would work just as well if, instead of using the average standard of living, we used an average between the lower and middle classes. However, the entire mechanism would need to be rebalanced.
Last edited by Mattia10; 20 Aug @ 7:57am
Tetra 20 Aug @ 5:43pm 
I checked again, apparently it wasn't only low income inequality but also stability and stable economic growth, so maybe having something that calculates a value comprised of "economic stability (over a time period, maybe something like 5 years or so), economic growth (so that stagnation or recession factors in negatively) and the SoL difference you mentioned", but I am not even sure if something like this is even possible in the game so I am kind of just info dumping
Silakbo 21 Aug @ 3:14pm 
think the rural pop growth bonus is somewhat represented in vanilla where pops get a birth rate bonus if there a higher ratio between arable land and population
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