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Hearts of Iron IV >  Workshop > TheVostroyanLordAdmiral's Workshop > Ushakov's Expanded Buildings > Discussions
Ushakov's Expanded Buildings
Description Discussions2 Comments84 Change Notes
Azura | Herrscher of Truth 28 Sep, 2023 @ 1:29am
Industrial Expansions and criticism.
Heya mod devs! First off. Great mod. I personally love such mods.

But I do have a couple things to criticise and suggest.

Resource buildings!
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They give too much. Yeah, sorry. But uh... Being able to make 180 steel appear out of nowhere is a bit...Busted but also redundant. Most majors have more than enough steel at the start. (Especially the USSR, Germany, USA and France.) I personally would nerf some of the resource buildings to output only like 50% of their original value.

Or. Even better. Give options in the game setup options that enable/disable resource buildings or that allow the player to choose how much these buildings produce. (Such as choosing in 10% increments from 10 to 100% of the current value.)

Propaganda buildings!
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Leader traits that give things such as permanent ticking war support or stability are already considered some of the most powerful ones around. So being able to set up a building which gives double of what these leader traits give but also in both war support and stability is...overpowered. Not to mention that the limit is only there by how many states you own. For certain nations like the USA where war support is a major bottleneck in them coming online it's going to be...very unbalanced if they deploy 2 or 3 of them and end up with 100% base war support by like mid 37 or early 38. So I'd reduce it down to 0.05% war support and stability per building. Or like I suggested before. Give the ability to regulate if they are even allowed to be used and if they are, decide how effective they are.

I want to remind you, the reader. That once you place it, it will spit out ws and st indefinitely without any future investment needed. See it as a watered down war propaganda and improved worker conditions decision that is permanently active without any downsides or future investments needed.

Research Centers!
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Cool on paper. But busted. At least in their current form. General research boosts are rare and not very powerful for a reason. With the most powerful tech being advanced computing which is by like...42 if I remember correctly and doesn't even give the equivialent of 2 labs. So yeah...I think you can see the issue there, dear reader.
Again. Give people the option to enable/disable them and give them the ability to set their effectivity in the game settings. (20% increments would be fine. So you can choose between a 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5% buff per building.)

Social Complexes!
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With the release of Arms Against Tyranny (AAT), a new system handling consumer goods has been implemented. Splitting consumer goods into a base "Expected Consumer Goods" and "Consumer Goods Modifier" stat.

To not get too much into math, if the modifier governs how strong the effectiveness of "Expected Consumer Goods", say if the modifier is at 70%, the expected goods amount will be multiplied by *0.7 and the value that comes out of that equation will be the percentage that will be how many of your factories will be occupied by it.

So.

Civ economy = 35% expected consumer goods. So 35% of all factories will be occupied in civilian factories. I.e if you have 100 civilian factories and 75 military factories and 25 dockyards, 35% will result in 70 of your civilian factories to be taken.

If you have a spirit or other bonus that gives you a "Consumer Goods Factor -43%", it will set your "Expected" amount down to just 20%.

Math : 100% factor -42% from spirit = 58% factor

35% expected *0.58 factor = 20% expected.

Meaning that in our 100 civ, 75 mil and 25 dockyards example, only 40 of the civs are taken.

Why am I telling you all this?

To understand why the social complex bonus doesn't work anymore/isn't worth building anymore.

To make things clear. PDX themselves multiplied every consumer goods bonus that existed before AAT by 3.

So MEFO bills, which reduced consumer goods by a flat 5% before AAT now reduces the consumer goods factor by 15%. Meaning that PDX thinks that converting every 1% of old consumer goods factor into 3% is balanced.

Here comes my suggestion for the Social Complex.

Instead of the old 1% consumer goods reduction, I suggest changing it to 5%. Why 5%? Mostly so it's cleaner and 3% still would be difficult to justify the investment.

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Industrial Expansions - Suggestion
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This mod would synergize perfectly with the Industrial Expansion mod. As it adds buildings that in total would take up 58 slots in total if I remember correctly. If you built every building of the mod at max level in a coastal state, which would warrant a building that allows you to build more building slots. I honestly can't suggest a much different path from what the mod creator did and add a new tech branch for industrial expansions in the industrial tree. (Just look up Industrial Expansion too see what I mean.)
It would fit right into the mod.

Air achools needing air fields - Suggestion
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I personally am unsure if that suggestion is even possible to implement, but here it goes. I personally liked the fact that naval academies are coastal state exclusive. Which also makes sense. It allows for practical training and is generally more convenient to place a school about ships next to water.

Now it would be cool if air schools could only be built in states where there is an airfield present. It makes more sense to have a school about planes next to an air field. It also limits the placement of schools unless you decide to build more airfields, which is another industrial investment the player has to commit to first.

The idea admittedly has more roleplay reasons than practical ones. But would be cool none the less.

Manufacturing Plants - Suggestion
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With the release of AAT came MIOs came into play. Which take a very long get to speed.
So I suggest a new building. Manufacturing Plants.

Manufacturing plants would give you a global bonus to MIO xp gain. And maybe a small bonus to production efficiency gain. (Which is quite a underused bonus as only 1 technology even bothers boosting it, even though it affects literally every production line you will ever make and use.)

Suggestion would be something around 5% MIO xp and 5% production efficiency gain per plant. It would cost roughly 25k IC and require Advanced or Improved Machine Tools to unlock.

The stats need to be field tested for proper balance.


------


To conclude...
It's a cool mod that needs some balance changes or ideally, gives the player the tools they need to customize their experience with said mod.

Hope you have a nice day. Bye!

(I am not liable for any strokes or mental breakdowns caused by types I overlooked.)
(Updated on the 2.11.2023 to accommodate the changes brought by AAT.)
Last edited by Azura | Herrscher of Truth; 2 Nov, 2023 @ 6:45am
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
This doesn't look right? 30 Sep, 2023 @ 6:15am 
Wow a well thought out post about improving a mod, nice.
#1
Hexon_Boi 5 Oct, 2023 @ 12:09pm 
Originally posted by This doesn't look right?:
Wow a well thought out post about improving a mod, nice.
i agree, but dev probably isn't even going to read it
#2
Zaph 22 Oct, 2023 @ 9:38pm 
Hey, I'm the mod author of Industrial Expansion. I just stumbled across this mod and thought it looked interesting. I might consider doing a compatibility mod and also adding in some of the game rules you mention if at all possible. Just a plan at this stage but I thought I'd drop a line. Glad you are enjoying my mod too :)
#3
Azura | Herrscher of Truth 2 Nov, 2023 @ 6:13am 
Originally posted by Zaph:
Hey, I'm the mod author of Industrial Expansion. I just stumbled across this mod and thought it looked interesting. I might consider doing a compatibility mod and also adding in some of the game rules you mention if at all possible. Just a plan at this stage but I thought I'd drop a line. Glad you are enjoying my mod too :)

Woah, cool to actually see you here! Thanks for reading, I really appreciate that!
#4
TheVostroyanLordAdmiral  [developer] 2 Nov, 2023 @ 11:49am 
This mod is part of a different, more complete main mod that I am putting together and is the main project.
The balance is centered entirely around that Mod, as it is my main project.

I plan to have a line of ideas in the politics menu dedicated to the building speed of these special buildings which are added/removed by decisions so they are not a "one and done" deal.

The bigger limiting factor would be Paradox's coding itself.
for example; Azura had the wonderful idea of having Air-Academies/Schools require an airport (great minds think alike lol) to be built in that state, a limit similar to how Naval academies need to be built in coastal states.
Unfortunately, this is not possible in the ##_buildings.txt files alone.
While I could, potentially, make something similar to what I believe Black-Ice has in the scripted files or on_actions, that is unfortunately, for now, outside of my ability to make.

You made excellent points in the discussion board, several of which I've been working on since before this particular mini-mod was even made.
So kudos to you for spotting these issues right off the bat :steamthumbsup:

For those asking for compat. patches and making submods for larger mods like EaW, well, I've never installed EaW, so I'm likely not the right person to ask.



TL:DR; This is something I thought would be nice to share while I work on a bigger mod
#5
Azura | Herrscher of Truth 2 Nov, 2023 @ 1:17pm 
Originally posted by TheVostroyanLordAdmiral:
This mod is part of a different, more complete main mod that I am putting together and is the main project.
The balance is centered entirely around that Mod, as it is my main project.

I plan to have a line of ideas in the politics menu dedicated to the building speed of these special buildings which are added/removed by decisions so they are not a "one and done" deal.

The bigger limiting factor would be Paradox's coding itself.
for example; Azura had the wonderful idea of having Air-Academies/Schools require an airport (great minds think alike lol) to be built in that state, a limit similar to how Naval academies need to be built in coastal states.
Unfortunately, this is not possible in the ##_buildings.txt files alone.
While I could, potentially, make something similar to what I believe Black-Ice has in the scripted files or on_actions, that is unfortunately, for now, outside of my ability to make.

You made excellent points in the discussion board, several of which I've been working on since before this particular mini-mod was even made.
So kudos to you for spotting these issues right off the bat :steamthumbsup:

For those asking for compat. patches and making submods for larger mods like EaW, well, I've never installed EaW, so I'm likely not the right person to ask.



TL:DR; This is something I thought would be nice to share while I work on a bigger mod


Hey, thank for taking your time to read my mess! I really appreciate the fact that you decided to read it

Like I said, it likely isn't possible to really do my air-school idea because of PDX coding. Which according to you, is correct without one major workaround that would blow the boundaries of a simple building mod.

When it comes to building balancing, I viewed it in the eyes of vanilla+ gameplay. (You know without conversion mods like Red Flood, EaW, TNO, KR, GW, etc.)

It likely will make more sense balance wise in your larger project. Where you likely will have to make some big investments to get those buildings. In that regard, stuff like a 5% boost per lab or 0.2% WS and ST per building / week is likely balanced.

But we gotta consider that this is a standalone version utilizing vanilla building mechanics.

So I humbly ask of you to consider re-balancing this one a bit to fit more with vanilla IF that doesn't take too much time from you. Else, it's fine to not do that. It is your creation after all and you can do whatever you want with it. And I'd understand that, considering that you said yourself that you are working on something much bigger and that this one is just a small component released as a standalone.

I hope you have a nice day when reading this!
#6
Jameskiro21 12 Nov, 2023 @ 2:31am 
Originally posted by Code : Azura:
Originally posted by TheVostroyanLordAdmiral:
This mod is part of a different, more complete main mod that I am putting together and is the main project.
The balance is centered entirely around that Mod, as it is my main project.

I plan to have a line of ideas in the politics menu dedicated to the building speed of these special buildings which are added/removed by decisions so they are not a "one and done" deal.

The bigger limiting factor would be Paradox's coding itself.
for example; Azura had the wonderful idea of having Air-Academies/Schools require an airport (great minds think alike lol) to be built in that state, a limit similar to how Naval academies need to be built in coastal states.
Unfortunately, this is not possible in the ##_buildings.txt files alone.
While I could, potentially, make something similar to what I believe Black-Ice has in the scripted files or on_actions, that is unfortunately, for now, outside of my ability to make.

You made excellent points in the discussion board, several of which I've been working on since before this particular mini-mod was even made.
So kudos to you for spotting these issues right off the bat :steamthumbsup:

For those asking for compat. patches and making submods for larger mods like EaW, well, I've never installed EaW, so I'm likely not the right person to ask.



TL:DR; This is something I thought would be nice to share while I work on a bigger mod


Hey, thank for taking your time to read my mess! I really appreciate the fact that you decided to read it

Like I said, it likely isn't possible to really do my air-school idea because of PDX coding. Which according to you, is correct without one major workaround that would blow the boundaries of a simple building mod.

When it comes to building balancing, I viewed it in the eyes of vanilla+ gameplay. (You know without conversion mods like Red Flood, EaW, TNO, KR, GW, etc.)

It likely will make more sense balance wise in your larger project. Where you likely will have to make some big investments to get those buildings. In that regard, stuff like a 5% boost per lab or 0.2% WS and ST per building / week is likely balanced.

But we gotta consider that this is a standalone version utilizing vanilla building mechanics.

So I humbly ask of you to consider re-balancing this one a bit to fit more with vanilla IF that doesn't take too much time from you. Else, it's fine to not do that. It is your creation after all and you can do whatever you want with it. And I'd understand that, considering that you said yourself that you are working on something much bigger and that this one is just a small component released as a standalone.

I hope you have a nice day when reading this!

A decision using <building>, and checking for an airfield level 1 or more, would do the trick. Then, after the specified time has passed, add the building via add_building_construction, and voila. Unfortunately, given how buildings work in HoI4, you'll have to make it so that building the building manually has an insane IC, to incentivise using the decision. The only problem is, you won't be able to choose the state, and you won't be able to reduce construction time with technology, unless you make a decision for each level of construction. But that will still leave ideas that affect construction speed, and dealing with those will add too much work.

EDIT: You could probably jerry-rig it so that you can still include construction cost speed, by making the building unconstructable via the interface, and I think I know of some methods to do that, but they'd involve on_actions and the such. If only Paradox devs would add a method of only allowing another building type to be built if another one has, but alas, it seems like that isn't going to happen unless we get a full economy overhaul.
Last edited by Jameskiro21; 12 Nov, 2023 @ 2:36am
#7
Azura | Herrscher of Truth 24 May @ 2:45pm 
Originally posted by Jameskiro21:
Originally posted by Code : Azura:


Hey, thank for taking your time to read my mess! I really appreciate the fact that you decided to read it

Like I said, it likely isn't possible to really do my air-school idea because of PDX coding. Which according to you, is correct without one major workaround that would blow the boundaries of a simple building mod.

When it comes to building balancing, I viewed it in the eyes of vanilla+ gameplay. (You know without conversion mods like Red Flood, EaW, TNO, KR, GW, etc.)

It likely will make more sense balance wise in your larger project. Where you likely will have to make some big investments to get those buildings. In that regard, stuff like a 5% boost per lab or 0.2% WS and ST per building / week is likely balanced.

But we gotta consider that this is a standalone version utilizing vanilla building mechanics.

So I humbly ask of you to consider re-balancing this one a bit to fit more with vanilla IF that doesn't take too much time from you. Else, it's fine to not do that. It is your creation after all and you can do whatever you want with it. And I'd understand that, considering that you said yourself that you are working on something much bigger and that this one is just a small component released as a standalone.

I hope you have a nice day when reading this!

A decision using <building>, and checking for an airfield level 1 or more, would do the trick. Then, after the specified time has passed, add the building via add_building_construction, and voila. Unfortunately, given how buildings work in HoI4, you'll have to make it so that building the building manually has an insane IC, to incentivise using the decision. The only problem is, you won't be able to choose the state, and you won't be able to reduce construction time with technology, unless you make a decision for each level of construction. But that will still leave ideas that affect construction speed, and dealing with those will add too much work.

EDIT: You could probably jerry-rig it so that you can still include construction cost speed, by making the building unconstructable via the interface, and I think I know of some methods to do that, but they'd involve on_actions and the such. If only Paradox devs would add a method of only allowing another building type to be built if another one has, but alas, it seems like that isn't going to happen unless we get a full economy overhaul.


Necro-ing that. With the building changes in Götterdämmerung, it should be fairly possible to have hidden buildings. (I haven't tested it yet, but new buildings like reactors, civlian reactors and defensive fortifications are hidden in the building menu till unlocked.) So it should be possible to keep certain buildings permanently hidden and only allowing them to be spawned in via decision.
Last edited by Azura | Herrscher of Truth; 24 May @ 2:45pm
#8
WhiteDragon25 7 Jul @ 9:21pm 
Necro-ing this thread to provide some additional ideas and musings: here's rough-but-detailed visual outline of what I had in mind[i.imgur.com].

The layout shown here should be relatively intuitive and straightforward to understand, but to be sure, I'll give a general overview:

- The box at the top should be recognizable as the Industrial Research Tech Tree seen in-game, with of course the addition of the Metallurgy tree from Ushakov's Expanded Buildings (obviously). The one major change here compared to UEB's original setup is that all the resource buildings (the Synthetic Oil & Rubber Refineries and the Steel/Aluminum/Chromium/Zinc Mills) would now have a max build limit of 5, with a starting limit of 1 provided by the initial Metallurgy/Synthetics research tech, with it going up by 1 for each respective tech afterwards. Exact values for the Metal-producing buildings remain up for debate for now.

- The two boxes below and to the left of the Industrial Research Tech Tree are a crude representation of the in-game Construction sidebar, with two different button layouts depending on which is more efficient/aesthetically-pleasing: two-column or three-column. There's a list to the right of them providing a guide to all the symbols used to represent the various (shared) buildings. Fairly self-explanatory, but aside from the Götterdämmerung additions that UEB has not yet updated to incorporate, there's also two new buildings that I added: the Industrial Plant (courtesy of the OP here, Azura | Herrscher of Truth), and the Hospital (wholly original). The Industrial Plant is the same in concept as Azura's idea, improving MIO and production-efficiency growth, while the idea behind the Hospital is that it would improve monthly population growth and (possibly) manpower trickleback (representing civilian hospitals taking in the overflow of military casualties from the frontline).

- The three boxes above that list and to the right of the Construction Sidebar boxes are a representation of the State Info Panel's Shared Building Slots, increased to 60 from vanilla's 25 (but decreased from UEB's 64). Each of these three boxes is simply a representation of what the Shared Building Slot UI would look like if fully maxed out to its entire 60-slots: the first box on the left displays 20 Civilian Factories, Military Factories, and Naval Dockyards each; the second box in the middle displays 10 CF/MF/ND, and 5 each of the Metallurgical and Synthetics buildings (the Fuel Silos being moved to the State Buildings); and the third box on the right displays 10 CF/MF each, 5 each of the Synthetics, and 1 each of all the 'Special' Buildings (excluding the Rocket Sites, which remain at 3 max). The rows below that box just show some of the various combinations of each of the limit-1 buildings possible.

- Incidentally, this also shows the ordering hierarchy for each of the buildings: it goes, in order; Civilian, Military, Dockyard, Steel/Aluminum/Chromium/Zinc, Synth Oil/Rubber, Army/Naval/Flight Academy, Admin. Office, Propaganda Tower, Industrial Plant, Research Center, Social Complex, Hospital, Rocket Site, V3 Gun, Stronghold Network, and lastly the Nuke Reactor/Heavy Water Reactor/Civilian Reactor. The reasoning behind this is simply grouping them by max-build limit: 20/20/20/5/5/5/5/5/5/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/3/1/1/1, respectively (the Rocket Sites being the only exception to the rule, given that the three buildings after it are all hidden Special Project ones).

Anyways, that should cover everything I wanted to share here. Feel free to ask any questions if there's any details I was vague on or missed.

And to @TheVostroyanLordAdmiral, I hope you read this and find this useful, and hopefully incorporate these suggestions into the mod when you finally update it!

At the very least, I'd like for somebody to make a fork of this mod that takes these suggestions into account. It'd be nice to see, at any rate.
Last edited by WhiteDragon25; 7 Jul @ 9:22pm
#9
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