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Monster Train >  Workshop > Rising_Dusk's Workshop > Unofficial Balance Patch > Discussions
Unofficial Balance Patch
Description Discussions12 Comments133 Change Notes
Never Nathaniel 27 Oct, 2020 @ 9:06am
Balance and Design for Champions
Rather than continue adding to the general comments, I wanted to have a more focused discussion on the current balance of the champion upgrade paths on the live patch and what could be done to improve the balance / design to 1) create more build diversity while also 2) not generally making C25 easier.

As of patch v1.0.0.3 of the Unofficial Balance Patch, here are the current adjustments which have been made to the champions:

Hellhorned Prince (Brawler)
Added ability text at all levels: “Strike: +1.”

Shardtail Queen (Imp Parade)
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+0
Added Base Effect: Armor 20
Changed Ability: “Summoned Imp units gain Multistrike 1, +5, and +4. Summon: Add an Imp-in-a-Box to your hand.”
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +10/+0
Added Base Effect: Armor 50
Changed Ability: “Summoned Imp units gain Multistrike 1, +10, and +4. Summon: Add an Imp-in-a-Box to your hand.”
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +20/+0
Added Base Effect: Armor 90
Changed Ability: “Summoned Imp units gain Multistrike 1, +20, and +4. Summon: Add an Imp-in-a-Box to your hand.”

The Sentient (Cultivating)
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+30
Changed Ability: “Revenge: Gain +1 permanently.”
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+60
Changed Ability: “Revenge: Gain +2 permanently.”
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+130
Changed Ability: “Revenge: Gain +3 permanently.”

Tethys Titansbane (Conduit)
Renamed Path: Conduit → Withering Monument
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +15/+5
Added Base Effect: Quick
Changed Ability: “Strike: Apply Sap 2 to the attacked unit if it isn’t Relentless.”
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +35/+7
Added Base Effect: Quick
Changed Ability: “Strike: Apply Sap 4 to the attacked unit if it isn’t Relentless.”
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +70/+9
Added Base Effect: Quick
Changed Ability: “Strike: Apply Sap 8 to the attacked unit if it isn’t Relentless.”

Penumbra (Architect)
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +5/+0
Decreased Ability Effect: +2 → +1
Added Ability: “Resolve: Apply Rage 3 to friendly units.”
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +25/+10
Decreased Ability Effect: +3 → +2
Added Ability: “Resolve: Apply Rage 4 to friendly units.”
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +45/+20
Decreased Ability Effect: +4 → +3
Added Ability: “Resolve: Apply Rage 5 to friendly units."

Primordium
Increased Base Stats: 3/3 → 4/4
Primordium (Superfood)
Rank 1
Increased Base Effect: Buffet 3 → Buffet 4
Added Base Effect: Damage Shield 1
Rank 2
Increased Base Effect: Buffet 3 → Buffet 5
Rank 3
Increased Base Effect: Buffet 3 → Buffet 6
Decreased Base Effect: Damage Shield 4 → Damage Shield 3
Primordium (Aggressive Edible)
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +6/+0
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +16/+0
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +36/+0
Primordium (Stalwart Snack)
Rank 1
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+16
Decreased Base Effect: Buffet 5 → Buffet 3
Rank 2
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+36
Decreased Base Effect: Buffet 8 → Buffet 3
Rank 3
Changed Stat Gain: +0/+56
Decreased Base Effect: Buffet 12 → Buffet 3

Rector Flicker (Dark Calling)
Added Ability Type: “Prepare triggers when you draw your hand on a new turn.”
Rank 1
Changed Ability: “Prepare: Reform 2 random units and apply an additional +5.”
Rank 2
Changed Ability: “Prepare: Reform 2 random units and apply an additional +10.”
Rank 3
Changed Ability: “Prepare: Reform 2 random units and apply an additional +15.”
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Showing 1-4 of 4 comments
Rising_Dusk  [developer] 27 Oct, 2020 @ 9:28am 
I appreciate you making this thread! I've copied over some of my design considerations with these champions from the comment thread where someone asked me about them:

Architect Penumbra: Umbra has so many ways to increase space that a path that just throws a ton of space on a floor is regularly wasted. The champion otherwise is so low impact that it's not worth the opportunity cost in most runs. Having the champion actually do something on a floor still getting some space to fit units who benefit from what it's doing makes it compelling and opens cross-clan synergy that Umbra generally lacks right now.

Superfood/Stalwart Primordium: You're actually absolutely right about this one. Superfood at rank 3 is too much and with feedback from you and others I'll be dialing it back some. Superfood gaining buffet stacks is important design, though, because you have to have time to draw into your status cards to play before it is fully eaten. Stalwart Snack is also wholly ineffective in core outside of extreme circumstances, and while I agree that pure HP isn't a particularly compelling replacement, I have a plan to further improve and incentivize the path for the next version.

Shardtail Queen Imp Parade: In base MT, rank 3 floods your hand with Imps you can't play to fill a floor that achieves little. Payout to just 1 rank is also minimal with a Queen's Impling. It's clear from the design and developer discussions on Discord that the intent is an "army of imps on a floor", so that's what I made in a fashion that is competitive with other paths.
#1
Never Nathaniel 27 Oct, 2020 @ 9:52am 
To kick things off, I will give a couple of thoughts regarding the Hornbreaker Prince. Currently, all three upgrade paths fit more or less the same "Damage Carry" role, with Wrathful being the only real standout as both carry and tanky frontliner. For me, currently Wrathful fulfills this role so much more consistently, that there is no decision but rather just pick Wrathful every time.

I mentioned this already on Reddit, but without going so radical as a full redesign, I'm curious if there is a way to slightly modify him in order to create build diversity. IMO, it would be nice if the paths were modified so that there is one clear "Glass Cannon Carry", one "Hybrid Carry/Tank" and one "Tank".

My proposal would then be as follows: Reaper is a "Glass Cannon" Carry, Wrathful as a "Hybrid Carry/Tank" and Brawler as the "Tank".

Here would be my setup
Base Stats - 2 Capacity, 5 Damage, 10 Health

Brawler - Requires buffs or enemy placement manipulation in order to get slay triggers, but has super high base armor, making battering ram and reinforce much stronger with this build.
Rank 1 - +5 Damage; Armor 10. Slay: Gain Armor 10
Rank 2 - +15 Damage; Armor 20. Slay: Gain Armor 15
Rank 3 - +35 Damage; Armor 40. Slay: Gain Armor 25

Reaper - Same as base with a minor HP buff. Easiest to scale damage and slightly more durable than base Reaper.
Rank 1 - +20 Damage; Slay: +10 Damage
Rank 2 - +45 Damage; Slay: +20 Damage
Rank 3 - +95 Damage; Slay: +40 Damage

Wrathful - Much riskier as a frontline tank due to the lack of innate sustain. Also works best with "self-damaging" spells which fits the "Wrathful" design. Decent flex for Reaper / Brawler.
Rank 1 - +5 Health; Multistrike 1; Revenge: Gain 2 Rage
Rank 2 - +10 Health; Multistrike 1; Revenge: Gain 3 Rage
Rank 3 - +20 Health; Multistrike 2; Revenge: Gain 5 Rage
#2
Rising_Dusk  [developer] 28 Oct, 2020 @ 7:55pm 
I've been mulling this over for a bit now, and I've decided that I like the idea. It goes beyond what I'm specifically trying to achieve with this mod by wholesale changing the way a complete champion behaves (rather than just target fixing paths that aren't performing as well as they should), but that isn't a bad thing. An overhaul mod like this that made each champion have more purity of purpose is a pretty great idea.

I think in practice you'd find that the numbers on the paths you've proposed might not be high enough. At floor 7-8 and with only 40 base damage, getting a Slay trigger on your Brawler would be extremely difficult. Similarly, the Wrathful path would just die outright to any single floor without a lot of support since it can't sustain itself. That said, numbers are fairly easy to tweak once you have the implementation down!
#3
Little I.W.I.C 30 Oct, 2020 @ 5:23am 
hm
#4
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