Thank you!

You absolutely have my permission to publish your own version. I haven't been doing any modding of Civ V since, and I don't really have the time to get back into it right now!

Ok, so my comment was much larger than comments are permitted to be here, so I had to chop it up into pieces. If you want to read it in the intended order, please scroll down and read the three comments (from the bottom up) before this one first.


And finally, Zarkonnen, if you don't intend to continue development on this mod, I'd like to ask your permission to publish my own version of this mod so that I can share my version of this amazing mod.

Comments pt2:

Cthulhu Worship: Increasing the cost of Prophets doesn't seem to have an effect until the industrial era (when you start purchasing them) though, so it's still quite overpowered. "Neal" on the Zarkonnen website suggested changing it to bring hard to remove with Prophets and Inquisitors instead, which I might try, but I'm not sure if it would be as fun as applying pressure to a city in the other end of the world. I might consider changing it to "Religion spreads to cities 60% further away. Prophets cost 60% more. 60% less religious pressure from this religion. 60% of followers are left after Inquisitors and Prophets", but it seems a bit lengthy. I'm gonna test it though.

Dagon Worship: This wasn't as much a balance change as an attempt to make it feel more thematic. It is more fun playing though.

Fungi from Yuggoth: I should probably change FfY to +1P -2C because it's no fun having no culture until Amphitheatres (or religion), and the hammer boost is way overpowered.

Here are my comments on my changes to:

The Black Goat of the Woods: I might change it to 20%, since it would still be decent if I did. At the moment it seems a bit weaker than Desert Folklore (not much, and it's so much more situational that I don't know if I have a good feel for it), it was definitely stronger before I changed it.

Elder Things: I haven't changed it, but I probably should since it's the weakest ability here. I can't figure out what change to make to it. I've left it as is for now, but some sort of buff really is in order.

The Messenger: I don't think I've playtested The Messenger enough to say that the change is balanced, but I felt that having to grow a city to 6 pop was enough of a downside that you don't need that much unhappiness, and given the amount of time it takes to do so 4 Science seemed a little underwhelming. I suspect I'll end up changing it to two Unhappiness

I LOVE this mod. It's my favourite mod for this game by far. I've played it for ~500 hours in total, and I've personalized it a bit (mostly balance fixes). Zarkonnen, I'd really like to see further development on this mod (and maybe also a version fo Civ 6, I don't play it, but my brother does and I'd love for him to get to experience this amazing creation). I think my experience playing this mod could be of value to the further development of this mod, so here is a list of the changes I've made to your amazing mod so far:


* The Black Goat of the Woods: +2 Faith from Forest tiles, 15% slower Growth Rate
* The Messenger: +6 Science and +1 Unhappiness from cities with population 6+
* Cthulhu Worship: Religion spreads to cities 60% further away, Prophets cost 60% more
* Dagon Worship: +1 Faith and Food from Fishing Boats, -3 Science per city
* Fungi from Yuggoth: +2 Production from Mines, -3 Culture per city

The reach covers an area, each additional 10% (1 tile) covers 6 more tiles than the previous 10%.
The original reach of 10 tiles covers (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)*6=330 tiles.
Increasing this by 30% leads to (1+2+3...+13)*6=546 tiles, increasing the number of tiles by ~65%
Increasing it by 60% leads to (1+2+3...+16)*6=816 tiles, increasing the number of tiles by ~147%

65*2=130

130<147

so 60% is more than twice as good. I think. I didn't include calculations for how many cities there can be (or typically will be) within this area, because i suspect it's above my level.

you had me at c'thulu worship

+60% is more than twice as good as +30%? so 30*2=59?

I'd like to propose something about the Cthulu Worship thing : since +60% is pretty strong (more than twice as good as +30%), if possible I propose +25% cost of BOTH Prophets and missionnaries (Cthulu is not appealing and it's hard to find devoted brainwashed people to spread his faith), -25% strengh of both Prophets and missionnaries and -25% pressure (as his faith is not realy welcome in the heart of new believers).
IMO this nerf will not kill the perk, as it is still extremely strong ; this will just slow the process and the reduced pressure will make it less of a pain to actively counter.
Great mod btw, thx for it !

Gotta love this mod :) I have one great issue tho: Cthulhu Worship seems very overpowered with it's 60% spread buff! It get's really old pretty quick to actually put an efford in campaign to fight off just one religion so it does not eat up your nation's cities INCLUDING your own holy city with just pure pressure (my religion +60 pressure in holy city, cthulhu pressure +120 with it's holy city on the other side of the world ftw!?). I can see why this seems lore accurate but gameplaywise it's just very unbalanced and nerve wrecking.

If you are talking to me about the food thing, I'd say rework it ground up around the concept of reaping more food rewards from water tiles. Also, one of the things in the story is the higher-level worshippers turn into merpeople. Maybe an upgraded marine? As for a negative.... Since they worship the sea maybe they lose benefits to river-based bonuses? With that disadvantage disabled for coast-tiles. So the Windmill and Garden would require the tile type to be river and coast, reflecting the bayou-based society of Dagon?

But I'll also see if I can put in some time to rebalance this one. From what I can tell, we want the following changes:

Dagon: +1 food from fishing boats, -X science per city
Fungi: +1 production from mines, -2 culture per city
Cthulhu: reduce religion spread to maybe 50% and increase prophet cost a bit

I really like "Visitors from the Stars", but I don't think it's Lovecraftian, and I'm not sure if I can get that effect by editing data files.

Gonna see that I can recreate this - ideally more gloriously - for Civ 6 when it comes out.

I'd say science - I mean, Innsmouth was as backwater and inbred as it gets.

Good point. Hmm, what downside should replace the food thing?

Minor criticism: Dagon was the elder god of the sea and in the story the town that worships him has huge fishing yields from previously desolate waters, so -1 food from fishing seems a tad off theme.

Fungi from Yuggoth is massively OP in later eras. My culture is still well over a thousand, but I get a very substantial production bonus. It did slow me down a fair bit in earlier eras though, so... I dunno.

Awesome Mod, altough I do agree that Cthulhu Worship is way OP. I look forward to seeing new stuff (someday), hopefully something based on the dreamlands.

Visitors from the Stars: +15% Wonder Construction Rate (Aliens built the pyramids after all) and +50% Science output during the Ancient Era. -25% Science Output Afterwards.
(based on theories that extraterrestrials visited ancient civilizations)

Awesome, I can't wait to try this out! Also kudos for putting the correct Elder Sign. :)

The only one that looks worthwhile is Cthulhu Worship 0-0

tolaburke: Boost (well, negative boost) to growth. So AFAIK it basically means you need 10% more food stored up before population goes up.

On 'Black Goat': Given that the game itself tends to be confused between boosts to Growth and boosts to Food(See: Temple of Artemis) I must ask; whcih is it? One's not so bad, the other is TERRIBLE.

Great mod, my shoggoth loves it!

looks cool

What is this heresy? Everyone knows that the Elder Sign is a star?

I think that Dagon worship should also give + gold. Apart from that- my favourite mod for civ ever! Iä! Iä! Shub-Niggurath!

change the cthulhu worship because once i see a computer use it with a other religion spread and he win very easly the religion battle so if you have a religion with the cthulhu worship, you are sure that all city have your religion. maybe replace 60 % by 20% will requilibrate this belief.

Here are some more ideas

* Necromancy: +15 faith whenever a citizen dies, +5 faith whenever one of your units is killed
* Human Sacrafice: 5% slower population growth, resistance in recently conquered cities lasts twice as many turns, +10 faith for every turn that a recently conquered city is being raisd.
* Ritualistic Canabalism: +8 faith in cities that produce less than 5 food per turn, +3 culture for every barbarian camp destroyed, all conquered cities are raised
* Holy Inbreeding: population growth becomes 2% slower per each new citizen born in a city

- 3 happnies for 4 scenice? "The messenger" Doesn't seem worth it lol.
+3 happnies > +4 scenice

Imagine having over 20 cities with that pantheon? Your happnies will go to shit..... D:

Seems cool c: Should make more pantheons :D

I'm curious about how these are balanced, Cthulhu worshio and Fungi both stand out to me. Cthulu gives no benefits to helping you untill you have a religion and then actively slows down the time you can get a religion in, this seems just awful.
Fungi is interestesting, it means that you can't get culture until amphipheters in liberty, but the ability to have 5-6 production tiles near the start of the seems really powerfull.

@Godzillasaurusjr: Not sure that would work. Firstly, you'd have to make getting a religion compulsory because the obvious workaround is not getting any faith buildings. Secondly, it'd also make all the early faith buildings and wonders completely pointless - I don't see how that adds anything to the game.

this one is for me, i gather...

how about Dagon Worship giving *more* food for fishing boats (perhaps gold for pearls?) and *reducing* growth %?

kinda, if you chosen the path, you pretty much have to follow it as long as it gets you (or destroy fishing boats altogether, if you decide to stop worshiping Father Dagon, can't think any reason why, but there are *weirdos* around)

oh, one question - do you plan to push this further, or it ends here?

Not tried this yet, but I like the idea of drawbacks (and Lovecraft)! I've had another idea for a while, too: What if all religion stuff gave you more disadvantages than advantages? That way, you really want to have an early religion (so you can pick the least damaging ones), and strong faith (so your empire doesn't become infected with crippling ideas from your competition who've been saddled with inferior beliefs).
The worse your religion is, the more you want to spread it, and the better your religion is, the more you want to keep it, and keep it to yourself (unless your faith generation depends on spreading it).

You, sir, deserve all of my internets for a month.

Huh, good question. I actually don't know if the AI will use the beliefs. Depends on how it's coded - has anyone seen them do it?

This is how Religion should have been done. But it doesn't really work if the normal parthenon beliefs are still accessible. Also, will the AI's use these beliefs?

Some thoughts on future development. [zarkonnen.com]

moar!

The idea with Shub-Niggurath is that it's her fecundity your population is feeding. :)

+2 production from mines is pretty strong, I know. Idea is that it's balanced by the fairly crippling -2 culture per city, but dunno. Could change it to a fixed per-city bonus. Really wanted to make it +1 production from hills, but that doesn't work correctly.

+ Gold from boats is probably gonna come with fish-man hybridization. :)

And yeah, The Messenger is weak. I'll decrease the unhappiness to -2 and maybe add another science.

" Slower growth rate from Black Goat of the Woods"?! You do know that Shub-Niggurath's specialty is fecundity, right?

This is pretty cool. I like the gold from boats idea +1

Shouldn't 'Dagon Worship' also have an element of inreased gold (+gold) from boats? They do draw gold from the sea in return for their 'Faith'.

P!nk0, that would be amazing. Please for the love of god do that one.

Love the mod!

+2 production from mines seems a little op.

Can you add Smile HD which provide happiness (or unhappiness) but gives a civilization a major bloodlust.

Is that a 10% growth debuff on all food (like temple of artemis) or just excess food?