Good point Macross - I just noticed that my changelog link here is no longer online, sadly.

In it I mentioned about Raven "...her bios says "used the cover of night", but there's already many NightOps Mercs - but no Stealthy & Automatics Merc in JA3.

Plus with her Talent TopSpotter she now can sneak forward and actually spot (and mark) bad guys for the team."

So I expanded the lore here to have a Sneak+Auto Merc in JA3 (like Igor was in JA2). It is true tho that she shines as machinegunner mostly and maybe there should be a change.

Which other merc could do Stealth and Auto? Maybe I should just add nightops to Raven (if I remember how to do it X))

Raven used to have nightops in JA2. I think its fits her better then stealth cos she shines as a machinegunner imo.

Did a duals-only single run with my Keanu. Great fun.
But no return. Replayability too low. Gameplaywise just too many downgrades from JA2.
These are the other reasons I stopped playing:
-> https://gtm.steamproxy.vip/id/RoQifella/recommended/1084160/

LOL, Yeah I am running BobaYaga too! I think they are done breaking stuff, so now might be a good time to come back?

Thanx man. Enjoy!

Them breaking my favourite mods was one of the reasons I stopped playing.
Just lucky I finished my single-John-Wick run before they disabled the Dualie mod.haha

Well hopefully they are done, I went through your mod again and it does seem to be in working order. Another mod was causing me errors. I do understand as I am a modder myself and it is frustrating when devs break stuff. Take care buddy.

@Xeryx Haven't cared for JA3 for a year.

Although JA3 devs regularly destroy good, working mods with their silly updates, I think tbh that it is unlikely that this mod causes any issues because moddingwise it changes very little and nothing structural or scriptwise.

So Idc any more, bc I don't play it any more.
Please be more specific describing the issues.

If you want a suggestion - maybe visit the 'free' Mercs we can recruit - Smiley, Pierre, Larry and so on - see what your fixes and changes to them would look like

@mousetrapreplica[TSC]
Nice! Upload it, share da luv.

To everybody:
Making small changes in this mod is super-ez. Just open the built-in Mod-Editor, look for the mod in the list and open it up. The rest is pretty much self-explanatory.
Ask if any questions arise. Only thing is that some perks are named differently in the game and the files, but I trust you'll figure it out!

it works fine with 1.5 from what ive played so far. i just went ahead and made the changes to dr q and fox myself, although im curious how that will work when it comes time to play a coop game with a friend in a couple days

@manco Thx a lot. Should be compatible with 1.5. Haven't tested bc pretty sure it worx. Moddingwise it's very simple. Works on all versions/ mods.

Not really working on a new version of it right now. Have had only little complaints. Most people like the changes. If you have any suggestions, please drop them here.

Any idea when the next version is coming up? Is this mod compatible with 1.5? Really like the changes you have done so far!

Thanks for the feedback. I collect evey opinion and will include it sometime next year in an update to a final version - that will finally fit everyone.

Just look at the video. Ivan kills the whole sector in one turn and uses just 3AP for it.
Balance?

Gonna do a mod that fixes that btw. For moa balance ;-)
Will be an add-on to Starting Mercs Done Right!

Using 16 mercs in every mission is special tho. Would be too complicated for me. Glad you did that tho.
Just finished a solo campaign on MI. Was easy too. game's just too ez in general imo.

Sure there's balance in the vanilla campaign - but not in regards of merc/prices. Igor, Barry and Blood for example are all much too cheap for what they bring. Ivan with his talent YouSeeIgor is just totally imba.
With a 3AP weapon he can kill over a dozen enmies in one turn. (Done that.)

Here you can see a melee build that kills like 20 people in 1 turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs-jpUvzBAk&t=28s

We even improved this build so it can kill an unlimited amount of enemies per turn (as long as you can reach them) see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7OlbddU1Vc

So like my mod, don't like my mod but just don't talk about vanilla merc/price balance in here bc it doesn't exist. There is no balance in vanilla regarding mercs and prices and that's why there also is no balance of that in this mod.

There's balance in the vanilla campaign however I will say I found vanilla quite easy using 16 mercs in every mission.

@lol You said that "adding traits (because of previous games) ruins the balance in many ways". A balance that was non-existent in vanilla I might add. If you play it you'll find the opposite is true. The balance is better with my mod. The only case where that actually might be true is Scope with her 99 marks and the new teacher trait. People can horribly exploit that. But correcting the easiness of teaching was also no goal of my mod. There's other mods that do that.

Aha. I don't really understand what's unclear about the description but okay. You do get more viable options and the "streamlining" refers to their "builds" i.e. their perk tree. It also includes "no changes in merc stats or prices".

Btw I took Grizzly as a starter in a testing campaign I ran. I played with triple enemies and higher ammo drops, so I actually used the MG42 (which was fun). He is good, but he is in no way imba (like Ivan is in vanilla) and still not as good as Igor is - for the same cheap price.

Thanks for the answer! Guess I misunderstood the preamble in the description "with the goal to give the player more viable options and to streamline some builds." The "Fixing the vanilla merc/price imbalance is no goal of this mod" explains everything 👌

(2) For more info on Grizzlys OffTheHip Talent check https://discord.com/channels/700297743490351184/888753738058178590/1176266072362586252 and follow the discussion. A merc with special ability of Rambo-firing MGs maybe should be one of the best MG shooters in the game? (Especially off the Hip?)
Sure he's very powerful now but so are said examples Igor and Barry and they don't eat ammo for breakfast like him. MGs in general are not that widely used in JA3 so I don't see this imbalance in any way as gamebreaking or so. (As for example Ivan's imba vanilla 3AP-talent is - just saying regarding devs and merc testing.)

You're feedback is always appreciated and the suggestions noted tho.

lol "devs had a lot of testing to balance the mercs and prices" had me really laugh out loud.

Mercs and prices are imba in vanilla. From minmax perspective you have to take Igor and Barry each time. Grizzly is strong & cheap like them now, I agree, not the best MG gunner tho, that's Ivan. The main reason for giving Grizzly the Auto trait was his talent. I looked at it in detail and it is useless in vanilla. (see 2)
In some cases this mod makes the already screwed up merc price imbalance better (Scully) in some it makes it worse (Grizzly) but fixing the vanilla merc/price imbalance is no goal of this mod.
There are mods that try to do this - tbh I just don't care enough about it to do it myself. I don't need a good price balance to enjoy the game, but I need mercs with fitting perks.

Glad you liked it overall, if you want to make a light version for yourself send me a DM and I'll show you how.

Hey, thanks for the mod! A lot of these changes feel great.


However, adding traits feels pretty cheesy.. For sure devs had a lot of testing to balance the mercs and prices. And adding traits (because of previous games) ruins the balance in many ways. Grizzly in my current playthrough is overpowered with both heavy weapons and automatic fire traits, making him the ultimate machine gunner for like 300$/day. Pretty sure there was a reason why devs didn't have a single merc with both these traits.

How about a light version (or a setting) which only leaves "changes" and "swaps"?


Anyway, thanks for the modding!

Great job, thanks for the mod and the update.

I understand where you're coming from and I had many such discussions about a lot of perks lately. :-) Your point IS noted tho and depending on what comes up I might still do some changes. I appreciate that you like it overall and hope you have some fun with it. And yes, they took 2 points of marksmanship from Shadow.

Alright, I see your point. My approach doesn't involve melee kills either, especially stealth kills in melee. I prefer going in guns blazing. However, thematically, I think it fits for him to move in AND then out after a kill, instead of being left out in the open. But anyway, I don't feel too strongly about it, so it's not a big issue for me, especially since I like the other changes.

@Morianthi Thank you! You know, doing such a mod there is no way you can make it perfect for everybody. Your suggestion re: Shadow is noted. For me personally Hit&Run was a wasted perk on Shadow and I never killed anybody with a knife with Shadow in 20years of Jagged Alliance. But he was always very mobile. With his Lightning Reflexes and the low tier Agi starting perk there's basically only one perk left on your way to Gold and I felt that a FastRunner+Frogleaping combo should be possible. You can still do the stealth kills, now you can freemove in instead of freemove out. The Hit&Run Freemove doesn't trigger at combatstart anyway. Send me a DM if you want to change it in for your game I'll show you how. It's ez.

I really like the changes! This is how it should have been in the first place. But why not keep Shadow’s Hit&Run ability? He’s one of the most expensive mercs after all. The rules were bent for Len; I can’t see why they can't be for Shadow as well. Well, this might be for balance reasons, since his Talent, coupled with his Traits, is already OP. It’s just that I can see him making a melee kill from the shadows, then immediately blending back in, no longer being in the same spot where he made the kill. It fits thematically. In other JA games, he’s almost always featured with a knife; and even here, his full body pic even shows a knife. Also, perhaps add something to reflect that he’s a sniper, as mentioned in his bio. By the way, is his marksmanship lower in JA3 compared to previous games?

v2 out now. Many great changes! Check the log on here: https://www.docdroid.net/7mUM8D1/starting-mercs-done-right-changelog-online-odt
or on the discord.

Very nice! (I send u a dm - maybe there?) No worries - just talking to you has already helped me a lot. Still wokring on it. Feedback always very much appreciated!

sorry i didn't have time to play or reply the last couple days. ill make a feedback thread so im not cluttering up the comments but ill try and respond to all the different topics you mentioned

Raider2: The strongest perk combination within his skillset seems to be
HitTheDeck-Vanguard + Distracting Shot

Reflecting that he often lies prone (=for free) (sometimes in the open =gets Grit) and shoots single shots at targets in overwatch cones. (=his talent) Plus Distracting shot as weapon against 'counter-overwatch'.

Revenge is nice as a unique starting perk but w/o a proper build it is not strong. His other Vanilla perk Flanker doesn't rly do it for me either.

Other perks to consider might be Deadeye and Arterial shot. Both emphasizing snipery quality. Arterial shot would be nice bc you could give him special ammo and aim for unarmored parts.

I would like Prone+Distracting Shot+Arterial Shot - but 2 Wisdom perks when he won't get over 2nd level there anyway?
He could reach 90 in Health, Dex & Strength but needs 10+ points each. Normally you would want to give him Health &Dex perks to start his way up.
Prone+Vanguard+Deadeye is a bit boring tho.

good points! 2 weeks might be possible. Main thing is conceptual work.
The more feedback I get - the quicker it goes ;-?
I think I agree with both points on Raider and Grizzly atm. Need a better idea for Raider. I think we gotta change his perks in order to make him stronger cuz none of the traits fit. I'm thinking gold perk, but no 90skill.
I noticed it's better for Grizzly if he starts one up on the health tree (Beefed Up) since the strength tree actually doesn't help him much. (Collateral being a bit of a waste.)
There's some things I gotta check out with Fauda, namely how her talent works with light armor and cumbersome weapon. (Grants freemove?)
Need some Feedback on Fox, cuz many people seem to go the cumbersome route for opener builds with her (heavy weapons+MGs).
Some Feedback on Len and Shadow would be nice (bc I don't know if people appreciate the changes.)
Plus the question if to do something about Ivans talent :-))
Maybe I can make an early beefed down version earlier?

I don't think raider should have auto weapons, thats really ravens thing. i agree he could use some sort of buff though, given that super high leadership really isn't as big a selling point as maybe the devs thought it would be. maybe either give him cqb training or some other skill? and i don't agree with mercs reloaded swapping their talents so im glad you've got those back to vanilla

i like the idea of grizzly having beefed up, i feel like other than steroid he'd be the most likely to have it

awesome, ill check it out in a few minutes! any idea when V2 might be ready? I probably won't be finished with my current playthrough for another week or two but i definitely want to use this next time, but id hate to miss out on some of the changes i like from mercs reloaded

OK, totally nerded out on the changelog. It includes explanations and ideas for v2.

https://www.docdroid.net/MQj2Ybn/starting-mercs-done-right-online-table-print-pdf

Full changelog incoming . . .

This is totally correct! Hand To Hand's main usefulness for me is melee combat start (=when melee stealth kills went wrong) and the hit enemy moves. Bam.
2nd chance.
You hardly ever do that w Fidel. For him it would be, tough cqc situation - just move next to someone and hit him in their turn. Rarely happens if ever. Plus never knife equipped.

Right about martial arts (more like h2h in JA2). Fidel just doesn't seem like a martial artist to me

yeah they totally changed the effect of hand to hand, which used to basically just be a melee damage buff, to something that is more of a defensive skill that requires a melee weapon/unarmed equipped at the end of the turn to be effective, which is just annoying for any characters other than pure melee. so don't feel bad for changing it, if anything given the current skills he could technically have martial arts, but we've already got dr q and blood as martial arts characters so i definitely wouldn't do that, Fidels already plenty strong once you increase his DEX a bit

Thanks :-)
I totally agree on the Fidel/DrQ issue. Nice that you just played them both.
Fidel had a melee trait in JA2, but this is one of the cases where I don't stick to it, bc as you rightly described it makes so little sense on him given his other skills and perks.

The CQC trait was really shunned by the devs idk why.

No, I don't change the traits or perks themselves. Bring it up to Rato, he is a nice guy!

ive actually been playing with both of those mercs on my current playthrough and those were two things i specifically noticed and was annoyed by so im glad to see them addressed here.

i appreciate taking my feedback into account but i can tell you have a pretty good idea what you're doing already. i look forward to V2!

right on, that all sounds legit to me, i forgot vicki always had throwing in the past, i like that you gave CQB training to fidel, i just feel like not enough mercs have that skill.

Im not really the biggest fan of Vickis talent (id probably just remove the flat damage buff and leave the crit chance buff alone), ive been playesting ratos gameplay overhaul so that might be something for me to bring up to him actually since im assuming this mod won't actually be modifying any existing perks/talents, just changing which mercs get what.

Dr Q gets really good once you raise his marksmanship over the course of a playthrough, but yeah early game he really relies on his melee, and it scales incredibly well with unarmed's high crit chance, not to mention it makes a ton more sense for him to have it then fidel, who will basically never have his knife equipped and therefore almost never benefit from the entire point of the skill.

Re: Wolf(Night Ops) I've seen the Reloaded changelist https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vS6jV6_xY4IFSlX0GCy5zY8JscyJMUimKLMjU2XZ1t5iT4BlYZvVa0WDL652yRfRoVN-6qZcWyLlNs-/pub and I'm planning to include most of his changes (since he didn't respond to my request for colaboration). But he actually was wrong on several things and some of my ideas I find better (Grizzly!) so not all of them will be in v2.

This mod is only at the beginning. What I released here is kinda my personal version that I made in one go. I appreciate the feedback bc I wanna see what the community actually wants to have.

@mousetrapreplica[TSC]
I'm updating yugely, bro. Thanks for the feedback. I wanna make it better & more JA2 wise.

Adding CQC to Vicky is noted. Might happen in v2. Thing about throwing is she had it in JA2:
(Akimbo & Throwing), so I wanna leave that. I'll think about adding CQC - but balance is what kept me from doing so until now, she's already pretty powerful w her Crit-special and I didn't feel she needed a buff.

I added HandToHand to DrQ bc I don't see why only an IMP could have both melee traits combined (MartialArts & H2H) and the good doctor is the dedicated melee merc with his awful 60 marksmanship.

I didn't include a written changelist - just the pictures where you can see all new starting setups. I recon that not everybody knows ALL the perk symbols or even remembers what the vanilla starting perks were, so I'll add a list.

oh and i'd also give Wolf night ops like he has in JA2, so many of his skills are focused on training/support/operations etc. he really needs a viable combat skill, and it fits his personality well

ive been using mercs reloaded, this looks like it could be a great alternative though as i did notice some room for improvement there, i like that you gave dr q hand to hand for example. any chance of a list of changes you've made so i don't have to guess at the rest of them?

also, in mercs reloaded vicki was given cqb training instead of throwing, i thought that was a better fit for her as a dual pistol expert. i generally like the idea of taking the best changes from that and tweaking/improving where possible. let me know if you get a chance to update this and i'll gladly give it a go on my next playthrough

this is great

Someone pointed me to another mod that changed starting mercs ("Reloaded") and make them more JA2 wise. Did a lot of looking up and discussion about how mercs actually were back then bc many peole confuse with Wildfire or 1.13 - inlcuding me on Scully here: He was actually a knife expert and not a auto weapons/knife like I remember (that was Wildfire), while 1.13 had him as thrower.

Rework incoming. Changes on Scully + some additions from "Mercs Reloaded" that refer to traits that are still in bio bc they were in JA2.