译文：在江泽民访问美国的前夕 ，中国的国家主席，江泽民与华莱士【注1】坐下来进行了一次少有的面对面访谈。

在这个话题宽泛和令人惊讶的坦率 的访谈中，江谈到了很多话题，包括美中关系、天安门事件和美国价值观。

这两位最近在海边休假胜地北戴河的主席别院中相见，开始了中国官员所称的西方电视新闻媒体的首次访问。

江，作为占地球五分之一的中国人的领导，在过去的十余年里都没有接受过美国电视台的采访。华莱士的访问将在江预定对美开展访问的前两天播放。

华(华莱士)：最近贵国官方英文《中国日报》（China Daily）有一则报导，标题说美国是《世界和平的威胁》。你是否同意这一判断：美国是世界和平的威胁？

江对此应对自如。

江 (泽民)：坦率地说，可能是因为经济力量和美国在科技上的领先，美国倾向于高估自己及其在世界上的地位，他说。“但是今天，我想对美国人民传达一个善意的信息，我不想在我们的谈话中用太多强硬之词。”

在问及总统选举【注2】，未来的中美关系时，江说他在两党中都有很多的朋友。

华莱士问道：“那么你对双方的竞选活动都提供资助了？”

江：“你在开玩笑吗？我们从来不做这样的事。我已经读过了两党的竞选纲领，无论谁当选，我都相信他会力图改善中美之间的友好关系，因为这符合全世界的战略利益。有人告诉我不要太看重在竞选过程中候选人做出的不友好言论因为一旦当选，他们就会友善起来。我只希望这会成真。”

在本次访谈之前，江同意简短回答，这样两人可以谈更多的问题。当华莱士提醒他这一点时，江微笑着说他可以回答，指出他的答案也会较长。“我想我的答案可能和你的问题一样长。”

本次访问之地北戴河被称为中国的“戴维营”【注3】。北戴河也是这个国家的领导人每个8月私下里会晤，为来年制定计划的地方。江主席同意与“新闻60分”坦率交流，强调他想与美国建立更好的关系。

他说，“我希望通过你的节目将我的美好祝愿带给美国人民。”

江说，两国的关系，总体来说，是好的。但他将中美关系以“自然界”为比喻，来说明其变化多端：“我们之间的关系有风有雨，甚至有乌云。但是，有时雨过天晴之后，我们都希望中美之间能建立建设性的伙伴关系。”

华莱士回复道，“这听起来真像是政客的言谈。不够坦白。”

江说，“我不认为政客是个好词。”

“是的，这不算是个好词， ”华莱士说。“在这种语境中是个外交辞令。”

虽然江是一个好交际的，喜欢受到关注的人，在10年中他都没有与美国电视记者进行过详尽的访谈。他说这部分是因为美国拒绝相信中国的大多数人实际上对一党统治是满意的。江对华莱士称中国为独裁国家表达了强烈的不同意。

“你的描述就好像一千零一夜听起来那么荒诞，”江说。“全国人民代表大会【译注：此处原文似有误，应为“中国共产党全国代表大会” 】选择共产党的中央委员会，中央委员会又选举出政治局。政治局有一个常务委员会，我就是其中的一名。如果没有全体成员的通过，就不会作出决定。”

华莱士问江在天安门广场上出现学生运动的时候，他是否敬佩那位站在坦克前面的学生的勇气。

江：“他从来没被逮捕，我不知道他现在在哪里。看看这张照片，我就知道他肯定有自己的想法。”

华莱士：“您还没有回答问题，主席先生，您就没有一点敬佩他的勇气的成分吗？”

江：“我知道你想说什么，但我想强调我们完全尊重每一位公民的表达自己的愿望和诉求的言论自由的权利。”

华莱士说，“我说的并不是那辆坦克，我说的是那个人的信仰，他的勇气，只身一人，对抗着坦克。”

随后华莱士提到，江泽民在抗日战争中也曾是上海的一位学生活动分子，那么情况又有何不同呢？


江：“在1989年的动乱时，我们是真心明白学生的热情，他们要求更加民主和自由的诉求。事实上，我们也一直在努力提高中国的民主制度。但是，我们不允许一些居心不良的人，打着民主和自由的幌子，利用学生运动来推翻政府。”

在天安门事件后一个月，江泽民在一次演讲里说道：“腐败正有愈演愈烈之势。如果全党和政府机构都用手中的权利来谋取私利，那么和在光天化日下抢劫老百姓有什么不同？”

华莱士指出，天安门事件的抗议者们同时也要求惩治腐败。于是他问道，他们的抗议是否对共产党有所触动呢？


江：“我也憎恨腐败。你说参与89动乱的学生们曾经把抗议的标语改成了反对腐败，这是对的。所以在这一点上，党和学生们是站在一条战线上的。”

而为了凸显自己曾经的学生活动分子的身份，江主席自己甚至在唱起了在1943年他唱过的反对日本侵略的歌曲：“学生们站起来，保卫祖国母亲。”

江泽民的秘书们则抗议说，鉴于天安门事件和江泽民毫无关联，向他展示相关的该暴力事件的照片是不公平的。但是他们却很乐意给《60分钟》节目看看去年在北约空袭中被美国战机轰炸的中国驻前南斯拉夫大使馆。

而当问到是否认为美国是有意轰炸贝尔格莱德的中国大使馆时，江间接地给予了回答。


江：“美国拥有高精尖的科技，因此美国解释的所谓‘误炸’是完全不能让人信服。

“中国在贝尔格莱德的大使馆是如此的显眼，以至于几乎不可能因为‘辨识错误’而被轰炸，因此为什么会发生这种意外呢？这个问题依然没有得到解答。但是我们仍然决定要向前看，努力改善中美关系。”

后来，美国政府尝试说服中国那次轰炸是个可怕的失误。

江：“克林顿总统很多次在电话里就‘误炸’事件向我道歉。我告诉他，因为你代表美国人民，而我代表中国人民，我们在这一点上无法达完全的一致。”

图：中国国家主席江泽民和迈克·华莱士在访谈中交谈(CBS)

在近期的访问中，江主席告诉华莱士因间谍罪被起诉的李文和并非是中国的间谍。

江：“我可以明确的告诉你，中国跟李文和案【注4】没有任何瓜葛。但是我们真的知道他是一名科学家。”


江说，李文和到中国来和中国科学家交流是很正常的事情。“这就像中国的科学家到国外去旅行一样正常，”他说，“请允许我在这里引用一句中国的谚语‘欲加之罪何患无辞’。我们不知道这件事情背后有何政治动机。现在中国人还是认为李文和只是位著名的科学家而已。”

当华莱士指出，当提及此话题，江第一次流露出了紧张情绪的时候，江大笑了起来，说道他并不紧张并反问华莱士他是否也认为李文和是间谍。而当华莱士婉拒回答时，江又笑了几声。

若干年前，当江泽民还是一名学英语的中学生时，他学过托马斯•杰弗森和阿布拉罕•林肯的演讲。当他作为教师的时候，他在课上教授过《匹兹堡宣言》。

当华莱士问及此事时，江说他还可以背诵其中的段落。

“八十七年前，我们的父辈们在这块大陆上建立了新的国度，他们追求自由并坚信人人生而平等”江凭着记忆背诵起来。


华莱士问他为什么这一部分记得如此清晰时，

江：“我被‘人人生而平等’这一句吸引。当我年轻时，这句话就对我产生了极大的影响。而且我认为当年阿布拉罕•林肯的理念至今仍是美国领导人的目标。”

江：“尤其是最后一段，‘这个民有，民治和民享的政府将永远不会从地球上消失。’”

于是华莱士询问江对于民主的看法：“为什么美国人民可以直接选举他们的领导人，而你显然不信任中国人民也可以进行这样的选举？”

江：“我也是一位被选举出来的领导人，尽管我们有着不同的选举制度。每个国家的历史文化传统，教育和经济发展程度不同，因此，每个国家都应该有自己的制度。”

江泽民是被中共最高领导层选出的主席。而只在一些小村庄和城镇才有普选，并且候选人要么是中共党员，要么只能以独立选举人的身份参加选举。


华莱士问江泽民为什么在中国实行的是一党专政。“那为什么我们一定要有反对党呢？”江回答道。“你们想向全世界推销美式价值观和美式政治制度，这并不明智。”

江：“我坦白说吧，中国和美国在价值观上截然不同。你们美国人总是用你们的价值观对其他国家的政治制度下定论。我们希望从西方学习先进的科学技术和发展经济的方法，但是这些技术和方法必须适应中国国情。这就是为什么我们在过去二十年间取得了如此瞩目的成就。”

中国的居住条件取得了显著的进步。在中国，如同在美国一样，经济状况的好坏很大程度上决定着人民对政府的满意程度。江坚持认为让人数众多的中国人团结一致共同发展经济的最好方法就是让绝大多数中国人坚信强有力的一党统治是最适合的道路。稳定是第一要务，哪怕有些时候要付出牺牲人权的代价。


于是华莱士问到了关于人权和关于中国政府镇压法轮功的行为。

江：“他们的领袖，李洪志，声称自己是佛祖和耶稣的转世，你信么？他说世界末日即将到来，地球即将爆炸。他所说的这些只是欺骗人民的胡言乱语，但在事实上，却造成了许多家破人亡的悲剧。鉴于如此多精心编造的谎言，我们认定法轮功是邪教组织。”


江指出没有法轮功追随者被判处了死刑。

但有报道说他们中有26人在警方的羁押中死亡。

江告诉《60分钟》，法轮功导致了成千上万的练习者自尽。

但是法轮功声称这是荒谬的，它从未鼓励练习者自杀，他们还说，尽管有中国政府的打压，但是法轮功组织还是在发展壮大。


而当被问到中国政府迫害基督教徒的时候，江说中国政府从未迫害过基督教徒，而且中国宪法保护宗教自由，包括对基督教的信仰。“但是法轮功是邪教，”他说，“他们和基督教有本质的不同。”

江一向主张严格控制媒体，他说：“媒体，应该作为党的喉舌。”

江：“我想所有的国家和政党都会有他们自己的出版物来传播自己的思想，我们有言论自由，但是这种自由应该从属并服从于国家的利益。怎么能让这种自由破坏国家利益呢？”


华莱士问江为什么中国封锁了一些网站，包括BBC的和《华盛顿邮报》的。

江：“我们希望人们从互联网上学习有用的信息，但是，有些时候非常不健康的信息——特别是网上的黄色信息——这些内容会影响我们青少年的成长。”

华莱士指出，BBC和《华盛顿邮报》的网站并没有黄色信息。“那他们被禁可能是因为一些政治性的报道，”江说道。“我们对待信息要有取舍。我们希望尽可能限制那些对中国发展没有益处的内容。”

江泽民的前任，邓小平曾经说过“致富光荣”。江说在那时，这个说法允许一部分人先富起来，但是“最终目标是人民共同富裕。”

华莱士问他是否觉得美国比中国更加腐朽一些。


江：“让我这么说吧，考虑到两国历史传统、生活方式、宗教信仰等诸多不同，许多你在美国认为并不是腐朽落没的东西，在中国确实是如此。这就是为什么我们要对信息有所取舍。”

在江泽民访美的行程中，他将会会见美国商界领袖，以敦促他们增加对中国的投资。中国巨大的十亿买家市场早已让美国企业垂涎三尺，但是现在的情况仍是中国卖给美国的比美国卖给中国的要多得多。


为了改变这种局面，白宫表示，如果国会批准给予中国永久正常贸易关系伙伴的身份——白宫已经批准了——那么他们会迫使中国降低关税和贸易壁垒，并最终购买更多的美国商品。

江也希望获得永久正常贸易伙伴的身份，并且在采访即将结束时重申了这一点。

“我相信这次访谈会进一步深化中美友好关系，促进和加深两国及两国人民的了解，”江泽民说，他还告诉华莱士他很钦佩美国，“我希望两国人民加深相互了解。”

译注：

1. 美国CBS电视台的“新闻60分”节目与华莱士的相关资料

2. 此处的总统选举指的是2000年的美国大选，最后由小布什击败戈尔当选；

3. 戴维营，美国总统的休假地，这里将中国的北戴河比喻为美国的戴维营；

4. 李文和案：他于1999年被指控为中华人民共和国窃取了关于美国核武库的机密。2000年，李与美国联邦政府达成诉讼协议：他对一项罪名认罪，政府收回其他58项指控并将其释放。

原文：On the eve of his visit to the United States, China's president, Jiang Zemin, sat down for a rare interview with Mike Wallace.

In a wide-ranging and surprisingly frank interview, Jiang talked about many topics, including relations between the United States and China, Tiananmen Square and American morals.
The two met recently inside the presidential compound in the seaside resort of Beidaihe, in what Chinese officials say is the first visit there by a Western television news crew.

Jiang, the leader of one of every five people on the planet, has not been interviewed for U.S. television in more than a decade. Wallace's interview will air two days before Jiang is scheduled to visit the United States.

Recently, one of China's government newspapers, The China Daily, called the United States, "a threat to world peace." Asked if he agrees with that assessment, Jiang treaded lightly.

"Candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not [the United States] tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world," he said. "But today I want to convey a nice message to the American people, so I don't want to use too many tough words in our talk."

Asked about the presidential election, and future U.S.-Chinese relations, Jiang said that he has a lot of friends among both parties.

"So you gave money to both their campaigns?" Wallace asked.

"Are you just joking?" Jiang responded. "We have never done such things. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties, and I believe whoever becomes president will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected they will be friendly. I only hope that's true."

Prior to the interview, Jiang had agreed to give short answers so the two men could cover more ground. When Wallace reminded him of that, a smiling Jiang was ready with a reply, pointing out that his answers had also been long. "I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question."

Beidaihe, the site of the interview, has been called China's Camp David. Beidaihe is where the country's leaders meet in private every August to develop their plans for the coming year. The president agreed to speak candidly with 60 Minutes, emphasizing that he wants better relations with America.

"I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to the American people," he said.

Jiang said that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability: "Our relations have experienced wind, rain, and sometimes clouds r even dark clouds. However, sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States."

"That's spoken like a real politician," Wallace responded. "There's no candor in it."

"I don't think politician is a very nice word," Jiang said.

"No, it's not a nice word," Wallace said. "It is a diplomatic word in this case."

Although Jiang is gregarious and likes attention, he has not given an extended interview to an American television reporter for 10 years. He says this is partly because Americans refuse to believe that the vast majority of Chinese are actually satisfied with one-party rule. Jiang, in fact, disagreed strongly when Wallace called China a dictatorship.

"Your way of describing what things are like in China is as absurd as what the Arabian Nights may sound like," Jiang said. "The National Peoples Congress selects the Central Committee of the Communist Party and the Central Committee has a Politburo. And the Politburo has a standing committee of which I'm a member. And no decision is made unless all members agree."

Wallace asked Jiang if he admired the courage of the student who stood down the tank during the student uprising in Tiananmen Square.

"He was never arrested," Jiang said. "I don't know where he is now. Looking at the picture I know he definitely had his own ideas."

"You have not answered the question, Mr. President," Wallace said. "Did a part of Jiang Zemin admire his courage?"

"I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect every citizen's right to freely express his wishes and desires," Jiang said. "But I do not favor any flagrant opposition to government actions during an emergency. The tank stopped and did not run the young man down."

"I'm not talking about the tank," Wallace said. "I'm talking about that man's heart, that man's courage, that man, that lonely man, standing against that."

Wallace then mentioned that Jiang himself had been a student protestor in Shanghai, during World War II. Was there any parallel?

"In the 1989 disturbance we truly understood the passion of students who were calling for greater democracy and freedom," Jiang said. "In fact, we have always been working to improve our system of democracy. But we could not possibly allow people with ulterior motives to use the students to overthrow the government under the pretext of democracy and freedom."

A month after Tiananmen, Jiang wrote a speech in which he said, "Corruption is growing. If all our party and our government organs use that power to seek material benefits, isn't this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?"

Wallace pointed out that the Tiananmen demonstrators had also been protesting against corruption. Had they had an effect on the Party, Wallace asked

"I hate corruption," Jiang said. "You are right that during the 1989 disturbance students were changing slogans against corruption, so on this specific point the Party shares the same position as the students."

As an aside, and to underline his credentials as a student demonstrator in times past, the president himself sang a protest song he had used back in 1943 against Japanese troops who were occupying parts of China: "Arise Fellow Students to Defend the Motherland."

The president's aides suggested it would be unfair to show pictures of the violence at Tiananmen Square because, they say, Jiang Zemin had nothing to do with it. But they were glad to give 60 Minutes pictures of their embassy in Belgrade, which had been demolished by American bombers, during NATO's air war last year.

When asked if he believed that the United States purposely bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Jiang answered obliquely.

"The United States has state-of-the-art technology," he said. "So all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing."

"The identification marks of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss," he continued. "So why has there been such an incident? It is still a question. But we have decided to look forward, to improve China-U.S. relations."

Afterward, the U.S. government had tried to convince China that the bombing had been a horrible mistake.

"President Clinton apologized to me for the bombing, many times, on the telephone," Jiang said. "I told him, since you represent Americans and I Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue."