XCOM 2
Long War 2
LB 18 Feb, 2017 @ 12:13am
Distinct Lack of Balance in This Mod
I'm sad writing this, because there's so many good features and ideas in this mod. But I've also never been so frustrated with a game as I am now. "A lack of balance" doesn't even come close to describing this mod... it's frankly just insulting how bad some things are at this point.

Somehow, hit percentages are even worse... to the point where 93% feels less reliable than 70%. Conversely, I've hit more 20% shots than I ever did in the vanilla game, but that's only because of the new "graze" system, which is even worse. Do you have an ADVENT soldier flanked by an Assault? Well too bad, he just grazed that shot down to 3 damage. Meanwhile, his buddy just "grazed" one of your best troops down for all his health... through full cover... from half the map away.

Certain skills are so appallingly useless, I seriously wonder if anyone ever took the time to play test them, or if they just slapped some numbers in and left it at that. Who's bright idea was it to have concussion rockets provide smoke FOR THE ENEMY? Who's bright idea was it to give rockets a 6 tile scatter range? Who's bright idea was it to give rockets a 2 - 7 damage range? In short, why would anyone ever choose a rocketeer, who by the way only gets 1 rocket and that's it, over a grenadier, who's pinpoint accurate, and can carry 5 grenades with a relatively low investment (despite grenade damage circles snapping inconsistently, and sometimes upfront lying as to who they're going to hit).

Vision's been made even worse in this mod. Enemies can activate well beyond your own detection range. This is on "default" alertness, too. Don't even get me started on activation ranges if you're even slightly below 100%% infiltration. And on that note, why do areas with 5 people on intel still give missions with impossible mission timers? Why is 0:00 programmed to be in the game? Why do alien convoy missions ALWAYS have impossibly small timers on them?

Speaking of timers, let's talk about mission timers for a minute. I made a statement earlier that questioned whether or not the devs had actually play tested the game, and I didn't make it lightly. So by your logic, you think that having a default mission timer of 12 turns, on a map where it takes 10 turns of gold move sprints to reach the objective & extraction point, is a balanced feature? When your mod requires your subscribers to manually edit the game's files themselves to make it actually playable, you should maybe reconsider your definition of balance. Oh, and that "- Set Mission Timers modifier to +2 on veteran sted +1, because we listen and care" mention on your balance notes... that's a good joke you made there. Thank you for insulting your player base.

This mod pisses me off, because there's so many good ideas that are brought down by a slew of balancing incompetencies. I like the haven management system, I like the varying mission types (when the detection range for stealth missions are actually working properly), even things like finding and fighting infiltrators... if they'd just stop stealing 40% of the monthly supplies.

I'm not the best player at this game, I won't lie. But this game shouldn't be this unforgiving, especially on lower difficulties. Original X2 was balanced around the idea of you having good missions, but also losing some people... which made snowballing a bit of an issue. This mode assumes you'll be snowballing, and balances around that. This means that making a couple mistakes means you lose the campaign. Wound timers and training timers are already punishing enough... I can't imagine what it'd be like trying to play on ironman, and constantly losing your soldiers due to awful gameplay features.

I've said it a couple times before, but I'm going to say it again: please actually play test your game, and from the perspective of your average player, not your top veteran who's memorized every line of code. And maybe rethink some of your gameplay decisions? Is it really necessary to have constantly spawning pods in haven assault missions (and have the Jammer perk SPAWN TWO WAVES AT ONCE)? Is it really necessary to have 8-man reinforcement pods spawn in the middle of your squad in the second month, because you were forced to spend one more turn getting the objective? Is it really necessary to balance mission timers around never activating more than one pod? Is it really necessary TO HAVE PODS ACTIVATE OUT OF VISUAL RANGE?

This mod has a ton of potential. But your balance team needs a firm slap upside the head. I'll be back to this in a few months, to see if the game's actually been updated to the point of playability. But as is, I can't stand dealing with all these balance inconsistencies. I'd prefer not grinding my teeth to dust out of frustration, tyvm.

And FFS, can we PLEASE not have the after-mission screen glitch after every couple missions or so?
< >
Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Ithuriel 18 Feb, 2017 @ 2:45am 
Hah. hah. hah hah hah. ...seriously mate. I'm not sure if you're intentionally trolling, but LW is generally considered close to the best balanced mod ever written, period. This is coming from a guy who's still in the middle of his first runthrough on Veteren. You're complaining that you're missing more 90% shots than 73% in XCOM2 vanilla? A) You literally can't miss 90% shots due to the graze mechanic, and B) You do realize that XCOM2 vanilla literally cheated to help you, right? Long War is completely honest with you about the percentages it gives; if you write all of them down, over the long term they will average to perfectly what is displayed. Vanilla had a hidden factor that increased your chances every time you missed a shot or a soldier died.

This mod by no means assumes snowball. I'm currently mid-August, and still desperately short on supplies, alloy, and elerium at all times; I've also currently got 20 soldiers wounded (had a bad spat of missions lately). Pods never activate out of visual range, period. Reinforcement pods arrive already activated, if you didn't know.

The 0:00 timer is a bug, they've acknowledged that in the patch notes and are working to fix it. (Which btw, why are you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that a mod that's been out for ~1 month has glitches? Get real.) Missions with short timers still show up in regions with high intel gatherers because the game works on a scale; those missions wouldn't have even appeared with 2 intel gatherers, and with 8 they would probably have manageable times.

Why do you say you have to edit the .ini to make the game playable? Frankly, just play rookie. It's a lot more straightforwards, and you're not that far from cheating if you play a higher difficulty with significant ini edits.


I'm genuinely not sure tbh you understand- this mod is exhaustively playtested and rigerously balanced, with a huge ongoing effort and contribution by the authors of the mod. But really all that said? You don't have to bloody play this. There are quite a few people who enjoy the hell out of it, myself included. But it's an infamously difficult mod, and they don't hide that. The game doesn't cheat- vanilla XCOM even did that at times. It's punishingly difficult, but winnable; it gives you your fair chances, it's honest with the numbers that it gives you. If you feel it's too much and isn't fun, then the solution is simple. Don't play. But either ask for advice constructively, or stop playing; ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the forums about how unfair the game is in hyperbolic tems isn't going to help you or anybody else.

EDIT: That was probably a bit harsh, I'm sorry. But the general gist is accurate- the game is considered to be reasonably well balanced by a lot of people, even if it is very difficult. The forums at Pavonis Interactive's website are a great aid; here's also a brief article written by a veteren with some quick advice. http://www.pcgamer.com/long-war-2-guide/
Last edited by Ithuriel; 18 Feb, 2017 @ 2:48am
TRJoker 18 Feb, 2017 @ 3:55am 
First of all, this maybe get a bit harsh ... smile
Second, I am really happy that Pavonis did that Mod and I like it.
Thx a lot for it Pavonis. Mostly great job.
But that does not mean its perfect or even near perfect till now.

Who did tell you you cant miss a 90% shot?
My guys can ... often.
And it does not make any diffrence if you hit and do zero damage in the end ... or if you dont hit.
Result is same ... its mathematics.
You can see that this guy did play LW2 and that he tried, so dont tell him he should play something else.
Shows only one thing, you are intolerant and hard headed.

Also I wonder who did call LW2 the best balanced Mod ever, must have been a huge fanboy.
I see far more ppl complaining about the balancing and the mod then I do see ppl that dont.
Even fanboys do ...
And I can read ... so proove your point.
But I know, all that critizise are noobs and idiots, not able to play.

This mod is a snowball and gets a pain in your ass if you make a few more mistakes.
If you are unlucky ... yes, unlucky, not stupid, you can loose complete campaign for 1 mistake.
If you make it in the right mission or before it.
But somebody that is such experienced then you does not make many mistakes, so how will you know?
Stupid in geniality ... a common illness with genius ppl.

Next thing is, maybe you know all bugs and know when a bug occurs, but many ppl cant tell the diffrence between a bug and diffrence related issues (many LOS bugs e.g.) and LW2 has many bugs, mostly not the fault of Pavonis, but also that does not change a thing, outcome is same, does not count if Firaxis did make the mistake or Pavonis.
The result is, bugs make the game even harder .... harder as it was meant ... and as it was meant nearly impossible hard, it gets impossible hard through some bugs.

About percentages of hitting and not cheating ... a joke of you?
LW2 is cheating in many ways ... as vanilla did also, not only on your side ... did you never notice?
Ask Pavonis about their better AI and how they did manage it ...
Hit chances are not real/statistic, mine are not and I also did write down many of them ... and they cant be ... alone cause of grace.
A hitchance means a hit ... not to hit and then gets into account 5 other variables that can make a not hit out of your hit or a near hit or anything else. LW2 even does not display that additional variables without an additional mod.
Are we playing diffrent games or am I just haluzinating?

Have we to discuss that it is/gets a grind?
Does we have to discuss that with shinobis and sharpshooters en gros it gets a piece of cake in the endgame?
That are signs of bad balancing ... well, some ppl like that, but most ppl dont like it.

The OP was a bit harsh as you were, and I am now too, but, he was not telling lies as you make ppl think. And his points are mostly well argumented.
So lets discuss it as ppl should discuss it ...
But on the other hand, there are already about 23786 threads out there doing this ... dont know if we need another.


I beleive most of what you said is true. But lw beta 1 is far different. From the fully formed version. This is a work in progress, even if it feels like the devs shat it out without play testing
eldiabs 18 Feb, 2017 @ 6:35am 
Sometimes I forget I'm playing a different LW2 than most. It's because I modified it to my preference, just like the rest of the game. Through mods and config edits.

I won't be pointing to the required mods or config files. It's all easy enough to find.

Give your rookies 5 - 10 extra accuracy. This puts them in line (if not just a tad below at start but later above (as it should be as the survivors are always learning) enemies.) I also gave a wider range of HP gain/loss for my not created equally rookies. Makes each of them more dynamic.

Up full cover from 45 to 60 or so. This makes it extremely difficult for both you or the enemy to take each other out behind cover. I leave half cover alone. Firefights are now prolonged and sharpshooters and other high accuracty squadmates (as well as rocketeers and cover destroying grenadiers and gunners) become crucial to winning big pod number engagements.

Rocketeers are amazing. The entire technical class is. You're using them wrong. Later on as they level up and the game gets even harder they become absolutely crucial in winning HQ missions (unless you enjoy boring shinobi/sharpshooter spam enagements). Rocketeers can end up with 4 FREAKING massive cover destroying rockets late game. 2 rockets if you use exo or power suits, 1 concussion rocket (the smoke never bothers me as it almost always disorients and stuns enemies who are so easy to take out it's stupid, especially with a gunner on area suppression). And the bunker buster which can literally clear the entire area in front of your team, making any enemies that show up to investigate the sound easy targets for any members of your squad. The flame thrower perks are no joke either. Think of them like terrifying lower damage, but higher supressive quality assaults. If you're not utilizing that class, you're missing out. They are crucial to HQ assaults and supply missions (as long as you avoid blowing up all of the supplies), and you use them as openers so you don't explode all of your enemies and miss out on corpses.

True concealment mod for timers. Enough said. Or modify the timers in the config, or both. That's like the easiest thing to fix, why everyone ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about it is beyond me. Take five minutes out of your life and make it the way you want. Don't expect the mod creators to cater to your minor complaints.

I've had no issues with the alert system. It's very fun in my opinion. There is also a very useful peek mod that came out. Use that if you're having issues.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Feel free to leave constructive feedback on the pavonis forums. They aren't going to read your complaints here. They spent years balancing the first XCOM LW. This one has been out a month. So yeah... And they playtested it for a long ass time bud.

And screen glitching is not the mod's fault. It's most likely mod conflicts or improper mod loading. FYI.

Bye.
AlienObserver 18 Feb, 2017 @ 7:01am 
To give the devs credit, the complexity is so high, that you really could not test all combinations of events. So sometimes the game just kills you, despite the devs promise to aim for a "fair" campaign".

In my second run, I kind of felt to be doing well, despite being brutally starved by chance. I did not get any mission that gave me enemy material or ressources for two months wand was forced to do the 1 day notice supply runs that have the "no chance" rating. They are winnable, but I would not do them on ironman. But I was very well ahead on Scientists, Engineers and rebel staff, had fine troops, and finally managed to scrape together almosat two teams worth of equip.

But now, after sending my best soldiers to attack the advent headquarters in my spawning region in full strength, with almost all the equipement, advent shoots down the avenger and attacks. All I have to defend is one magnetic rifle, one laser rifle and one laser cannon between 12 soldiers, many of them very low level. No ammo, no armor, nothing. I want to mention also, that because of unlucky missions i never got a single turret wreck to buy avenger defenses.

So now I find out that avenger attacks have gotten much worse and I have heavy drones and heavy mechs swarming me and defending it with mostly tier one equipment. I wouldnt call that a "fair" campaign or "balanced", the game just decided to kill me there, despite me doing well in the campaign so far.

So I couldnt agree more, that balance can easily be broken by many such unlucky random (?) combinations of events, happening at the wrong time in your game, that could not all be playtested, but are not balanced just the same. If Ithuriel was not hit by those, he was lucky.

Edit: I just checked, the spike has 36 hitpoints, and I am doing 4-6 damage per round with my sniper. What a grind.
Last edited by AlienObserver; 18 Feb, 2017 @ 7:47am
AlienObserver 18 Feb, 2017 @ 8:56am 
Ok, I tried the defense again and again, but this is the f****** most difficult mission I have encounterd in this game. Avenger defense is DEFINTELY unbalanced. There is nothing you can do to protect yourself, but have a 12 man team with perfect equipment around at all times, which simply is impossible with the starving level ressources.

I had to defend myself against ca 60 advents, with heavy mechs, advanced and heavy troopers all, shield bearers, lots of snakes and sectoids, cryssalids and a muton commander for gods sake, with nought but rifles! This really kills the mod. No way with so many advent to get eyes on the spike with my shinobi.

Even without ironman, my campaign is lost, my savegame is at an unwinnable state, and I dont feel there is anything anyone could have done differently.
Last edited by AlienObserver; 18 Feb, 2017 @ 8:56am
Man of Culture 18 Feb, 2017 @ 10:35am 
I do enjoy seeing all the special snowflakes out there throwing fits about an optional mod they can download for an added challenge.

Sorry people, you don't get trophies for coming in last place, you actually have to work to achieve a win with this mod. Your first couple play throughs are probably going to end bad and you're going lose a lot until you get better. I always wonder why some folks just can't handle not being awesome at everything with almost no practice. When did people forget you have to git gud?
doglywolf 18 Feb, 2017 @ 11:34am 
Ithuriel - Thats not true about the % i have missed several 100% shots.
Its due to the nature of graze / dodge.

So you have 100% hit meaning you have a 90% hit change - 10% Graze chance at best.
IF you do graze the enemy has a chance to dodge, unlike vinalla where dodge = half damage dodge now downgrades hits on this scale
Critial hit
Standard hit
Graze hit
Miss
So a Graze can become a miss even though you have 100+ change to hit.



Lord Backael - I agree there are a lot of elements that are horribly out of balance or important mechanics that ruin entire campagins if you dont have a really tight grip on how they work that are almost completley unexplained .

A lot of your complaints can be easily fixed though the graze band can be adjusted in the options menu , you can completely turn it off if you want. I turned it down to 4% myself.

Technicals - I think just about everyone agrees they are completely useless in the mid to late part of the game and Grenaders are FAR superiour - im working on perk that makes grenades have no weight too grenades too.

Not that you should have to but some ini changes fix the game.
The simpliest fix for me that i did is made troop ambushes reduce vigilance more then the base value.

A mod called true concealment freezes the timers till you break concealment so all the wasted time running to an objective arent wasted.

The problem a lot of people have is most things in LW2 have a weight which reduces mobility when carreid so you can only do alot of those missions if you go in light or without much gear slowing you down.
Last edited by doglywolf; 18 Feb, 2017 @ 11:39am
ThugSnugmeat 18 Feb, 2017 @ 11:48am 
OP's salt is so strong right now. I don't even have the will to make a counterargument.
Anon 19 Feb, 2017 @ 4:38am 
What a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ comunnity
eldiabs 19 Feb, 2017 @ 6:00am 
AlienObserver - You really should pull in all of your best teams once the ufo hunter event starts. Use B and C teams for the missions (or concentrate on supply and recruitment instead) and keep your A team on standby until the event either ends or you get shot down by the ufo.
AlienObserver 19 Feb, 2017 @ 8:48am 
@eldiabs
thanks, I guess I learned that. So many happy surprises in this mod :)
jtravers88 19 Feb, 2017 @ 2:51pm 
Originally posted by Ithuriel:
Hah. hah. hah hah hah. ...seriously mate. I'm not sure if you're intentionally trolling, but LW is generally considered close to the best balanced mod ever written, period. This is coming from a guy who's still in the middle of his first runthrough on Veteren. You're complaining that you're missing more 90% shots than 73% in XCOM2 vanilla? A) You literally can't miss 90% shots due to the graze mechanic, and B) You do realize that XCOM2 vanilla literally cheated to help you, right? Long War is completely honest with you about the percentages it gives; if you write all of them down, over the long term they will average to perfectly what is displayed. Vanilla had a hidden factor that increased your chances every time you missed a shot or a soldier died.

This mod by no means assumes snowball. I'm currently mid-August, and still desperately short on supplies, alloy, and elerium at all times; I've also currently got 20 soldiers wounded (had a bad spat of missions lately). Pods never activate out of visual range, period. Reinforcement pods arrive already activated, if you didn't know.

The 0:00 timer is a bug, they've acknowledged that in the patch notes and are working to fix it. (Which btw, why are you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that a mod that's been out for ~1 month has glitches? Get real.) Missions with short timers still show up in regions with high intel gatherers because the game works on a scale; those missions wouldn't have even appeared with 2 intel gatherers, and with 8 they would probably have manageable times.

Why do you say you have to edit the .ini to make the game playable? Frankly, just play rookie. It's a lot more straightforwards, and you're not that far from cheating if you play a higher difficulty with significant ini edits.


I'm genuinely not sure tbh you understand- this mod is exhaustively playtested and rigerously balanced, with a huge ongoing effort and contribution by the authors of the mod. But really all that said? You don't have to bloody play this. There are quite a few people who enjoy the hell out of it, myself included. But it's an infamously difficult mod, and they don't hide that. The game doesn't cheat- vanilla XCOM even did that at times. It's punishingly difficult, but winnable; it gives you your fair chances, it's honest with the numbers that it gives you. If you feel it's too much and isn't fun, then the solution is simple. Don't play. But either ask for advice constructively, or stop playing; ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the forums about how unfair the game is in hyperbolic tems isn't going to help you or anybody else.

EDIT: That was probably a bit harsh, I'm sorry. But the general gist is accurate- the game is considered to be reasonably well balanced by a lot of people, even if it is very difficult. The forums at Pavonis Interactive's website are a great aid; here's also a brief article written by a veteren with some quick advice. http://www.pcgamer.com/long-war-2-guide/

The original poster's comments are valid. Your response is just dribble.
< >
Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Per page: 1530 50