Insurgency

Insurgency

Born To Kill 1.02
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Too much of a good thing?
The mod is pretty neat so far, but there's a problem I've noticed. Several classes, mainly on the NVA team, have way too many weapons to choose from. This is a long read, but I hope the developers of this mod will read it all and consider my points.

TL;DR: You should probably cut back on the number of weapons.

I hear some people say that you can never have too much variety, but there are several reasons not to have a huge variety. Firstly, the more weapons you have, the harder it is to be sure that they're all balanced properly. Consider the infamously bad weapon balance in Battlefield 4. That game boasted about the giant number of weapons to choose from, but any experienced player will tell you that only about 1/3 of the weapons in each category are worth using. I haven't been able to test every single weapon so far, but I'd imagine that several weapons (especially in the NVA sharpshooter class) are just worse overall when compared to their competitors, even when taking their point costs into account.


Second, having so many weapons with very similar stats results in each weapon feeling less unique. Let's compare the pistols availible to the NVA in this mod to the pistols availible to the Insurgents in vanilla Insurgency, for example. I opened the mod files and went through the actual programmed stats to be sure these were accurate.

Insurgent pistols in vanilla Insugency:
Makarov - A free, 8-round pistol with low recoil and high fire rate but short range and average damage.
Model 10 - Also free, a 6-round revolver with almost no recoil, very low weight, and a high fire rate, but also a very slow reload time and low damage.
M1911 - Costs 1 point. A 7-round pistol with very high damage and good range, but high recoil.

NVA pistols in Born To Kill:
Model 10 - Free. Stats seem pretty similar to the vanilla Model 10 overall.
Nambu - Costs 1 point. An 8-round pistol with moderate ROF, but low damage.
Tokarev - Costs 2 points. An 8-round pistol with moderate ROF and damage.
Makarov - Costs 3 points. An 8-round pistol with moderate ROF and damage.
P38 - Costs 3 points. An 8-round pistol with high ROF and moderate damage.
Luger P08 - Costs 3 points. An 8-round pistol with high ROF and moderate damage.
C96 - Costs 4 points. A 10-round pistol with high ROF and moderate damage.
Vz.61 - Costs 8 points. A 20-round machine pistol with extreme ROF and low damage.

That's a lot of redundancy. Don't you think it would be better looking something like this?

Nambu - Costs 1 point. An 8-round pistol with moderate ROF, but low damage.
Tokarev - Costs 2 points. An 8-round pistol with moderate ROF and damage.
C96 - Costs 4 points. A 10-round pistol with high ROF and moderate damage.
Vz.61 - Costs 8 points. A 20-round machine pistol with extreme ROF and low damage.


Third, having weapons so similar can be so confusing. As stated before, the NVA sharpshooter is one of the worst examples of this. What's the difference between the K98 and the Mosin? Heck if I know. What are the advantages and disadvantages between the SKS, G43, SVT-40, and SVD-63? I could guess from the prices that the SVD and SKS might have the best and worst stats, respectively, but that's about it. You might as well just randomly pick a weapon. Compare this to the Insurgent sniper and sharpshooter classes in vanilla Insurgency, where your options are:
A bolt-action rifle
A semi-auto rifle
An expensive battle rifle
Anyone can easily get a general idea of what each weapon is like in comparison to the other choices, just from deduction. The bolt action is obviously going to be powerful. The semi-automatic rifle will be better for closer ranges due to a much higher fire rate. The battle rifle is much more expensive, so obviously it's going to be better than the other two. Since it's in the sniper/sharpshooter class, you can assume the battle rifle will be powerful, even without knowing what a FAL or a battle rifle is.


Finally, there are psychological benefits to cutting back on variety. Studies show that people tend to become overwhelmed, confused, and sometimes even stressed when faced with excessive amounts of choice, even choices about little unimportant things. Decision-making becomes more difficult when you have to think over more options. It has also been found that as the number of options to choose from increases, the amount of satisfaction from making the choice goes down, and the chance of becoming frustrated with a choice goes up. Many inexperienced game developers seem to confuse complexity with depth. In most cases, you should aim to keep complexity as low as possible without harming your depth. Extra credits has a good video on this matter.

Thank you for taking the time to read this mini-essay. If you're one of the developers of this mod, I hope I've managed to convince you.

I just finished writing a lot of essays in a very short period of time for school and now I can't stop.
Last edited by RENDERMODE_NONE; 25 Dec, 2016 @ 7:54pm
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Showing 1-15 of 38 comments
CaptBuilder 25 Dec, 2016 @ 6:38am 
You make some very good and interesting points. Though I admit I like the weapon variety, the case to cut it back is very solid. Well done, hope the devs take some of this into account!
bossk123 25 Dec, 2016 @ 9:17am 
Your one of those types that knows nothing about guns, or military anything. You want to ruin an awesome military mod for us because its not GAME-Y enough for you? This isn't counterstrike man.
/k/avalier 25 Dec, 2016 @ 9:38am 
Originally posted by bossk123:
Your one of those types that knows nothing about guns, or military anything. You want to ruin an awesome military mod for us because its not GAME-Y enough for you? This isn't counterstrike man.
Knowing stuff about guns has no relevance to any of his points, nor about the military. Having so many guns although it can be fun the amount here seems overkill and really, a G43 in vietnam? im suspicious as to the historical accuracy of that.
Prowbar 25 Dec, 2016 @ 10:05am 
good points, definitely agree with you on this one.
Windy 25 Dec, 2016 @ 10:48am 
I concur as well, needs at the very least some more balance to loadout options and maybe a bit less inventory, devs are working hard on this, give them time and I am sure the finish product will be an improvement.
hauler 25 Dec, 2016 @ 11:09am 
Originally posted by zebramax:
Originally posted by bossk123:
Your one of those types that knows nothing about guns, or military anything. You want to ruin an awesome military mod for us because its not GAME-Y enough for you? This isn't counterstrike man.
Knowing stuff about guns has no relevance to any of his points, nor about the military. Having so many guns although it can be fun the amount here seems overkill and really, a G43 in vietnam? im suspicious as to the historical accuracy of that.
Now i could be wrong, but i think that some people did use the gewehr and the sturmgewehr but dont quote me haha. Personally, i like the variety but if they want to change it, so be it. Im just glad theres a vietnam mod for insurgency.
Last edited by hauler; 25 Dec, 2016 @ 11:10am
Qwen_9tails♀ 25 Dec, 2016 @ 12:22pm 
They did have g43 rifles in veitnam given to the northern forces as military aid from the soveits. I will just leave this list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War.
Last edited by Qwen_9tails♀; 25 Dec, 2016 @ 12:22pm
Casual Sun 25 Dec, 2016 @ 12:36pm 
I agree with you OP. It would be less of an issue if the developers put a description that told exactly how the gun performs, a la sernix server.
Max Dickings 25 Dec, 2016 @ 5:04pm 
I'll agree a lot of weapons are similar. So? I love the variety, I love being able to use a bunch of historically accurate weapons whenever I want, as opposed to the alternative of constantly subscribing/un-subscribing from different weapon mods. BF4, of course as balance issues. But I play Insurgency because you can have "the best" or "most unbalanced" gun in game, doesn't mean anything against good teamwork.

But really what I'm saying is - is it really a crime to have multiple 5-shot bolt-actions or similiar weapons of a type? Sure, feel free to re-work weapon point costs, but don't cut them. I can't really think of a scenario when someone says "I'm so glad they cut out the _____." What if they cut the Nambu and not the Makarov. I want to use the Nambu, there aren't many games I get to use one.
RENDERMODE_NONE 25 Dec, 2016 @ 7:53pm 
I have noticed a couple people saying the confusing regarding the sniper rifles is my fault for not being familiar with the weapons appearing in this mod. Actually, I'm familiar with all of them, but knowing the guns in real life doesn't allow you to know exactly what to expect ingame. After all, the stats of the weapons in this mod won't perfectly reflect real life, probably just general stats like caliber, magazine size, weight, etc. And when you have multiple similar weapons, having a general idea of what a weapon does from real life knowledge is meaningless.

Originally posted by Casual Sun:
I agree with you OP. It would be less of an issue if the developers put a description that told exactly how the gun performs, a la sernix server.
I agree that adding a better description would probably help. I don't think it would be enough to just add descriptions, but it could certainly be a step in the right direction.
Last edited by RENDERMODE_NONE; 25 Dec, 2016 @ 7:57pm
Favkis Nexerade 25 Dec, 2016 @ 8:10pm 
I just LOVE that there are SO MANY choises. This is just awesome! If it's too hard for you to choose - play Ace Of Spades, it has only 3 weapons.
Long Barrel 26 Dec, 2016 @ 8:55am 
Go play something else you dumber.
Tohbs 26 Dec, 2016 @ 10:11am 
I haven't tried the mod, but I feel that the amount of pistols is good. Allows for more playstyles
Terrific_Ivan 26 Dec, 2016 @ 3:05pm 
Who cares about pistols? A good weapons cost a lot of points, especially with upgrades, so you actually taking pistol from points that left. Usually it Nambu (1p) or TT (2p). And situations when secondary weapon can save your life are very rare. Because switch speed is very slow and you'll die way more faster. It almost never happens even in vanilla.
But main weapons must be balanced, I agree.
Last edited by Terrific_Ivan; 26 Dec, 2016 @ 3:06pm
DeadlyUnicorn 27 Dec, 2016 @ 5:57pm 
Quck answer: no, most of the guns shouldnt be cut.
Most of the players who playing this mod are already played insurgency, so this shouldnt be much of a problem for most people.
Only problem is missing uniqueness of some weapons to distinguish one of another (sounds, handling, recoil, etc), and you only should pay attention to this.
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