Store Page
Stellaris
All Discussions Screenshots Artwork Broadcasts Videos Workshop News Guides Reviews

Stellaris

Store Page
Stellaris >  Workshop > Tr33's Workshop > Ancestors' Grudge Origin [4.0] - Reforged Update > Discussions
Ancestors' Grudge Origin [4.0] - Reforged Update
Description Discussions1 Comments190 Change Notes
 This topic has been pinned, so it's probably important
Malthus  [developer] 6 Feb @ 9:39am
Smithing Relics - REWORK
The current implementation of relic smithing has a few weakpoints that make it feel lackluster.
Relic quality outcomes are dynamic, based on the number of smiths you employ on your Relic-Forge world, the relic anvil and the modifier you can aquire by defeating the vazuran empire - so everything that gives you "artifact strength".
Within certain thresholds the outcome will always be the same.

-> This is not very well - if at all - communicated to the player
-> There is little to no player agency save for repeatedly clicking the artifact to restart the process
-> The quality outcome is predictable and boring

So now that we have identified, what is bad about the current system, what are we going to do?

First of all we want to have more randomness - but weighted - for the projected quality of the produced artifact.

Instead of one fixed quality outcome, you will get a prediction range with a minimum and maximum quality outcome which are at the very least one quality step apart and at most you could get the full range from worst to best.

In order for this to have more variety, we have to increase the number of possible qualities. For this we did what one does and looked at the most reasonable example - Dwarf Fortress item qualities. Everything that is produced in our origin is supposed to be done by master smiths, so the absolute base quality is normal and it goes upwards from there.

1 Mundane - Lowest quality (blocked from randomly assigned minimum, but can be assigned via event outcome during smithing)
2 Well-crafted - Lowest randomly assigned minimum quality
3 Finely-crafted
4 Superior
5 Exceptional
6 Masterful
7 Legendary - Highest possible assigned max quality (exceedingly rare to produce - extra strong)

These names are subject to change, but for now we are running with them.

Ok, so now we have our smithing situation and it may tell us, the predicted outcome of the process will be for example a relic between Finely-crafted and Masterful. These two values will be rolled at the creation of the situation and chances for min and max outcomes are intended to be influenced by your "artifact strength" modifier, but bad rolls will not be impossible. Even a master smith may have a mediocre day.

As you may have already noticed in the attached info for the "Mundane" quality, we intent to have random events that may fire during the smithing process, which can influence the quality of your produced relic. Right now, I think it should be limited to max one event per smithing situation if any happens at all. When one of them happens, it should offer the player meaningful choices, how to react to it.

An example event could be:

"Trouble in the Forge"
"During the ongoing smithing ritual our appointed smith blundered spectacularly. All work so far has been undone and the process has to start anew. The honor of a smith, however, demands that a project begun must see its completion.
How will we react to this mistake?"
Option 1: "Let him sort it out, but remind him of the deadline."
(no costs - minimum and maximum quality lowered by 1 level - progress reset to 0 - double monthly progress until finished)
Option 2: "Let senior smiths offer their insight on his design flaws."
(unity cost - minimum quality raised by 1 level - progress reset to 0)
Option 3: "Let senior smiths suggest improvements on his design."
(unity cost - maximum quality raised by 1 level - progress reset to 0)

With such choices - when they arise - the player should have some direly needed agency during the process. Option 1 would just let him get over with the ritual quickly, if the outcome wasn't anything good to begin with, while the other two options allow to nudge the outcome in a better direction if it was already promising to begin with.

In addition to this, edicts might be another way of influencing the smithing process.

I hope that these changes will address the three main issues of the current system and make for a more engaging experience.

If you have ideas for possible events, please post them below. We are still in the process of brainstorming and the more ideas we have the better.
Last edited by Malthus; 6 Feb @ 9:45am
< >
Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Darrow O' Lykos 6 Feb @ 11:39am 
So right now my issue with the current system of activating a relic to bestow it upon a leader is: it overwrites relic activation cooldown AND after recycling it you can again activate another relic. Don't know if this is because of other mods or this mod specifically. Don't really have any experience with modding this game either, only conflict solving so I have no insights on what could be a better system.

Moving onwards, some ideas for your rework

- Situation A: a choice of adding minor artifacts upkeep during phase 1 / 2 to boost either the quality or the strength of the effect (though I think that's mostly affected by the jobs + amount of times a relic has been made)
- Situation B: where the alloy/steel/whatever material they use to craft the relic turns out to be of very poor material.
> Approach A: do nothing, just keep working (will result in 1-3 levels lower quality, rolled randomly?)
> Approach B: purify (added upkeep for the situation, alloys + minerals or sth idk) which will boost the quality (0-2, so no guaranteed quality tier increase)
> Approach C: scrap the project and get rid of the goods (= lose some basic materials, but also start the next situation with some progress already because they've still done some prep work or decided some things were worth salvaging after all
- Situation C: sudden inspiration. While crafting the new relic, the craftsmen were hit by a sudden burst of inspiration. Eager to explore this new concept/chain of thoughts (couldn't rly think of better words) the craftsmen considering experimenting in favour of finishing their work
> Approach A: Let them experiment. This will either slow down or speed up the progress slightly (random) and will result in a wider range of quality lvls (can roll any quality)
> Approach B: Focus! We have to meet the deadline/quota! (Default progress speed, perhaps a small chance to roll a slightly lower quality lvl due to being distracted)
> Approach C: Fund their experiment: add upkeep of energy credits + some research (physics and/or engineering makes most sense) which will do two things: either lower the quality but increase the progress of the situation or the inverse. First I thought have the quality increase pay off with an effect decrease or the inverse, but that would destroy the whole point of quality in the first place, right? Point of quality = better effects, no?

These are just my initial ideas but I kind of dislike the steam formatting. If you find them interesting and would like me to come up with some more, feel free to let me know. Thank you all for your work!
#1
Darrow O' Lykos 6 Feb @ 11:54am 
- Situation D: Workplace accident. A smith/artificer is demoted (killing a pop seems very harsh, though is definitely also a possibility. Would need a very good pay-off though, unless you're okay with an all negative outcome. Most players would dislike that, but it could be there with a very low possibility or sth)
> Approach A: Such is life. Nothing happens besides the pop demotion.
> Approach B: Fund workspace safety: either a (very small?) upkeep added to the job/building to increase the situation speed very slightly.

Approach B could also either lower or eliminate the chance for this situation to happen again as long as the approach is never taken. Or that could be Approach C where there's a one time cost/payment + the added upkeep to "cure/help" the affected worker so he can keep his job and removing this event from the pool of possible situations.

I'm just spitballing. I have literally no idea if these are all possible to code in the situation framework.

- Situation E: In Sync. Everyone had a good day/week/month and felt very in sync with each other. Almost... hivelike or telepathically connected (could have increased weight/chance for these government/species?)
> Approach A: Excellent! (Situation progresses at double the speed. Quality roll +1/2) Idea is "just go with the flow, enjoy a good thing while it lasts"
> Approach B: "Exploit" (better word?) the situation. Progress remains the same, but quality is guaranteed Masterful or Legendary
> Approach C: Observe/study. Halves situation progress. Normal result. Permanent buff to future relic-crafting-situations (either a +1 in quality or small situation progress increase)

I don't know whether or not it's possible to have repeating situations where 1 approach is limited to one/game but other approaches can be repeated.
#2
Darrow O' Lykos 6 Feb @ 12:03pm 
- Situation F: Workfever. The craftsmen got so caught up in their work they didn't realize the toll it took on the planet. (Think dug too deep for resources, dangerous mechanics/reactions that could get out of hand or even cause explosions or sth). Add 20 planet devastation.
> Approach A: Reprimand them. Progress slowed slightly, but gain some research from the observations (physics/engineering make most sense)
> Approach B: Deal with the fall-out. Progress slowed (more than slightly, but not insanely much). Reduce the planet devastation with 10. Optionally add a small energy cost/upkeep until end of situation or sth. Could also combine both approaches.
> Approach C: Nature will heal. Work is all that matters. Progress gets a little boost, but max quality will be lowered.

- Situation G: Ever increasing demand (repeating event)
> Approach A: Try to keep up. Progress is slowed slightly (repeatable option until the progress has a minimum value that you guys decide on). Max quality roll is also lowered by 1 each time this option is taken.
> Approach B: Train more craftsmen. Adds a small research upkeep and will give +1 job cap at the end.
> Approach C: Hire muscle. Temporary job position created. Progress either goes on as normal or with a slight increase. Quality has normal rolls. Perhaps a -1 max quality roll.

This is starting to look to me like they'd be better as planetary buffs/debuffs or sth or as three different situations that remain in effect until all options have been taken (as in, Effect A from Approach A will be active until effect B from approach B is taken, but you can't instantly take approach B, you either have to wait for something (Trigger? Time? Event?)
Last edited by Darrow O' Lykos; 6 Feb @ 12:11pm
#3
Tr33  [developer] 6 Feb @ 12:30pm 
Originally posted by Darrow O' Lykos:
So right now my issue with the current system of activating a relic to bestow it upon a leader is: it overwrites relic activation cooldown AND after recycling it you can again activate another relic.

No thats a current bug I also noticed. Seems like a weird issue. Need more time to invest this


Regarding all you ideas. Tbh I will just implement them to the best of my ability how you describe them. Although some of them already exist in a slightly different form. All random events are rare
#4
Tr33  [developer] 8 Feb @ 3:18pm 
Originally posted by Darrow O' Lykos:
- Situation F: Workfever. The craftsmen got so caught up in their work they didn't realize the toll it took on the planet. (Think dug too deep for resources, dangerous mechanics/reactions that could get out of hand or even cause explosions or sth). Add 20 planet devastation.
> Approach A: Reprimand them. Progress slowed slightly, but gain some research from the observations (physics/engineering make most sense)
> Approach B: Deal with the fall-out. Progress slowed (more than slightly, but not insanely much). Reduce the planet devastation with 10. Optionally add a small energy cost/upkeep until end of situation or sth. Could also combine both approaches.
> Approach C: Nature will heal. Work is all that matters. Progress gets a little boost, but max quality will be lowered.

- Situation G: Ever increasing demand (repeating event)
> Approach A: Try to keep up. Progress is slowed slightly (repeatable option until the progress has a minimum value that you guys decide on). Max quality roll is also lowered by 1 each time this option is taken.
> Approach B: Train more craftsmen. Adds a small research upkeep and will give +1 job cap at the end.
> Approach C: Hire muscle. Temporary job position created. Progress either goes on as normal or with a slight increase. Quality has normal rolls. Perhaps a -1 max quality roll.

This is starting to look to me like they'd be better as planetary buffs/debuffs or sth or as three different situations that remain in effect until all options have been taken (as in, Effect A from Approach A will be active until effect B from approach B is taken, but you can't instantly take approach B, you either have to wait for something (Trigger? Time? Event?)


Malthus and I agree that we really like your ideas. There are 10 random events for the smithing situation currently. If you have some ideas how to improve them, that would be nice.

For a quick peek into every single one:

> start game with one of the origins
> pause game!
> open console
> type "event mem_ancestors_grudge.999"
> choose the third option (it should show you which one starts the forge trial situation)
> click on the situation with the game still paused
> reopen console
> type "event mem_ancestors_grudge.998"
> now you should see each event
#5
Darrow O' Lykos 9 Feb @ 1:30am 
Thank you for the kind words. It was fun to brainstorm for a bit :)
I'll see when I find some time to dig into them. I guess I could also just poke around the mod files (localization or events) to see what they do? It probably won't always be as clear or obvious as going ingame.
#6
Tr33  [developer] 9 Feb @ 5:39am 
Originally posted by Darrow O' Lykos:
Thank you for the kind words. It was fun to brainstorm for a bit :)
I'll see when I find some time to dig into them. I guess I could also just poke around the mod files (localization or events) to see what they do? It probably won't always be as clear or obvious as going ingame.


Most events are straight forward (except the one that Malthus did, 445-450 :)). Thx for helping out

Here a copy of my event notes/ the id for all events currently in the crafting situation, Everything except .450 should have locs with title, desc and options:

############################################################################################################
# random events for crafting situation
############################################################################################################
# mem_ancestors_grudge.400 | alloys
# mem_ancestors_grudge.405 | consumer goods
# mem_ancestors_grudge.410 | failed but MA
# mem_ancestors_grudge.415 | rick/cube relic
# mem_ancestors_grudge.420 | accident/dead smith
# mem_ancestors_grudge.425 | motes
# mem_ancestors_grudge.430 | tech
# mem_ancestors_grudge.435 | nanites
# mem_ancestors_grudge.440 | rival sabotage
# mem_ancestors_grudge.445 | diggy hole
# mem_ancestors_grudge.446 | diggy hole success 1
# mem_ancestors_grudge.447 | diggy hole success 2
# mem_ancestors_grudge.448 | diggy hole success 3
# mem_ancestors_grudge.449 | diggy hole fail
# mem_ancestors_grudge.450 | diggy hole hidden event to choose 446-449
#7
Malthus  [developer] 26 Feb @ 3:02am 
Today the final reworked smithing system will be released. However, it may be in need for some number adjustmends in case specific outcomes turn out too frequent. We will need feedback on how it feels with the new system in order to finetune this.
#8
< >
Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Per page: 1530 50