The flares is not the problem in planes, the ECM is. I usually remove them on planes, but i cannot do so on the J20, so i dont even bother fighting it

yeah, it's for propaganda purposes.

Can anyone pull the actual stats and compare them to, let's say, vanilla equivalents?

That would give us some solid numbers rather than just conjecture.

Originally posted by Ace:

Can anyone pull the actual stats and compare them to, let's say, vanilla equivalents?

That would give us some solid numbers rather than just conjecture.

you could just test them.

Originally posted by Ace:

Can anyone pull the actual stats and compare them to, let's say, vanilla equivalents?

That would give us some solid numbers rather than just conjecture.

I ain't Arma 3 expert, so I don't know how to do so.
However, it would become really obvious when you put any factions in the game against PLA in this mod in Zeus. You can try it out yourself and you will see what I mean. XD

Originally posted by かんむす原因勃起:

Originally posted by Ace:

Can anyone pull the actual stats and compare them to, let's say, vanilla equivalents?

That would give us some solid numbers rather than just conjecture.

you could just test them.

That doesn't give me hard numbers to compare. If I pit them against each other in a fight and see one side consistently mop the floor then yeah that's a pretty good indication of being OP or not against those units.

But that's not what I want to know.

I want to know by comparing the numbers if maybe the mod author had chosen the numbers based on another mod, and if so, viewing those numbers might give an idea of which mod it was. That would affect balance.

Different mods balance things differently, and a lot of mods don't balance well when paired with each other. An obvious example is vanilla vs Warhammer 40k units. A less obvious example might be WW2 units vs RHS units where maybe rifles that would be much more powerful under RHS have been nerfed for WW2 gameplay, or alternatively, something WW2 might be powered up for the sake of balance with other WW2 units. Like a Panzerfaust probably can't kill an M1 Abrams in real life but in this WW2 mod perhaps they had to buff its stats because the person who coded the tanks made them too strong. Or maybe how RHS units seem OP compared to vanilla stuff, not realizing that RHS doesn't play well with vanilla stuff and is balanced to play with other RHS units. Or how CUP mod vehicles seem as frail as paper but that's because they're meant to be played with ACE installed.

Considering that this mod author doesn't have an enemy force referenced in the mod to square off against, there's a high risk that they had nothing to compare the values to and just put in numbers at random. By giving them actual numbers to work with might help them correct the balance rather than just complaining about it and offering no solutions.



I for one would suggest they rebalance to align with RHS units since RHS is so popular.

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Originally posted by Ace:

Originally posted by かんむす原因勃起:

you could just test them.

That doesn't give me hard numbers to compare. If I pit them against each other in a fight and see one side consistently mop the floor then yeah that's a pretty good indication of being OP or not against those units.

But that's not what I want to know.

I want to know by comparing the numbers if maybe the mod author had chosen the numbers based on another mod, and if so, viewing those numbers might give an idea of which mod it was. That would affect balance.

Different mods balance things differently, and a lot of mods don't balance well when paired with each other. An obvious example is vanilla vs Warhammer 40k units. A less obvious example might be WW2 units vs RHS units where maybe rifles that would be much more powerful under RHS have been nerfed for WW2 gameplay, or alternatively, something WW2 might be powered up for the sake of balance with other WW2 units. Like a Panzerfaust probably can't kill an M1 Abrams in real life but in this WW2 mod perhaps they had to buff its stats because the person who coded the tanks made them too strong. Or maybe how RHS units seem OP compared to vanilla stuff, not realizing that RHS doesn't play well with vanilla stuff and is balanced to play with other RHS units. Or how CUP mod vehicles seem as frail as paper but that's because they're meant to be played with ACE installed.

Considering that this mod author doesn't have an enemy force referenced in the mod to square off against, there's a high risk that they had nothing to compare the values to and just put in numbers at random. By giving them actual numbers to work with might help them correct the balance rather than just complaining about it and offering no solutions.



I for one would suggest they rebalance to align with RHS units since RHS is so popular.

here's an easy check. you could just test J-20 to go against i dunno 20 gen 5? either it's the SU-57s or the F-22s or the F-35 from USAF mod, RHS mod, or FIR.

otherwise your comment is just a diversion.

FIR mod are to me considered OP due to it's weapon characteristics and manuverability when compared to other mods but closer to being realistic. But this mod is just on another level of OP. Like Jojo remark, the J-20s ECM doesnt have a significant weakess againtst 20-30 missiles and need to fire 6 missile simultaneously to have a chance to hit once on a minus 2km range or less depending on the missile you use.

I don't understand what's such a diversion of me saying "I know it's OP. I want to know how bad."

Originally posted by Ace:

I don't understand what's such a diversion of me saying "I know it's OP. I want to know how bad."

sorry, i didn't really mean to say diversion. my mind was on someting else at the time.
but again, you can just check the mod yourself.

I agree on this one, it sounds like the mod author is definitely a Winnie the Pooh fanboy. Or they just don't know what proper stats are to give to their mods, the latter being more forgivable.

Originally posted by Idrnk2mch/Prussian_Raven/Cap:

I agree on this one, it sounds like the mod author is definitely a Winnie the Pooh fanboy. Or they just don't know what proper stats are to give to their mods, the latter being more forgivable.

Oh come on. You don't gotta be rude about it. Giving the benefit of the doubt, it's entirely possible they just have nothing to consider balance against.

Like if I made a mod and only made one faction I ain't got a clue how to balance that ♥♥♥♥. And frankly, the vanilla stuff is way too squishy. I want my armor to work damn it. If I made a mod I'd probably screw up the balance too.

I think RHS or CUP are both really good base points for the mod author to decide how they want to balance the game. Depending on which they choose though, the balance could still work better for one than the other.

Originally posted by かんむす原因勃起:

Originally posted by Ace:

I don't understand what's such a diversion of me saying "I know it's OP. I want to know how bad."

sorry, i didn't really mean to say diversion. my mind was on someting else at the time.
but again, you can just check the mod yourself.

I'm not very modding savvy so I would not know how to do this. I'm sure I could figure it out, but it would be convenient for both mod authors and people like me if there was some documentation. It would also end this argument very quickly by knowing factual numbers.

If not, I'm sure we could figure it out ourselves.

I suppose what we really need to know is would the mod author allow another mod author to make a version of this mod that makes balance changes so it works better with other mods? I think that's all people really want, because this is a very good mod that just doesn't mix well with the balance of some other popular mods.

Assuming I get back into ArmA 3 modding, I might attempt to do that myself if the mod author is okay with it. Having an ACE version of this would quickly fix a lot of issues with balance because ACE standardizes a lot of things, if I recall correctly.

Test for VME PLA (OP?):

VME PLA '99 fors vs US Army '03 fors

On Desert Map (CUP)
Two rifle squads and four tanks per side using CUP US Army and VME PLA

First Test: US Army won
US Army were attacking the Oil Pipeline, PLA defending..
AAR: US Army won by two tanks and 5 infantry

Second Test: Inconclusive, US Army won phyrric victory
US Army defending and PLA attacking..
AAR: each side had one tank remaing, US had two infantry remaining.
Situation: Probably the two surviving tanks had run out of ammo for the main guns.


Third Test: Inconclusive, PLA won phyrric victory
Both sides attacking the pipe line..
AAR: PLA had two tanks remaining and one infantry. US Army had one tank remaining and no infantry.
Probably the remaining tanks had run out of ammo.

Fourth Test: UA Army won
Both sides attacking the pipe line..
AAR: US Army had one tank left. All other units were eliminated.

The results were inconclusive but probably demonstrated that the VME PLA mod is not OP compared with CUP.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Beardy:

Test for VME PLA (OP?):

VME PLA '99 fors vs US Army '03 fors

On Desert Map (CUP)
Two rifle squads and four tanks per side using CUP US Army and VME PLA

First Test: US Army won
US Army were attacking the Oil Pipeline, PLA defending..
AAR: US Army won by two tanks and 5 infantry

Second Test: Inconclusive, US Army won phyrric victory
US Army defending and PLA attacking..
AAR: each side had one tank remaing, US had two infantry remaining.
Situation: Probably the two surviving tanks had run out of ammo for the main guns.


Third Test: Inconclusive, PLA won phyrric victory
Both sides attacking the pipe line..
AAR: PLA had two tanks remaining and one infantry. US Army had one tank remaining and no infantry.
Probably the remaining tanks had run out of ammo.

Fourth Test: UA Army won
Both sides attacking the pipe line..
AAR: US Army had one tank left. All other units were eliminated.

The results were inconclusive but probably demonstrated that the VME PLA mod is not OP compared with CUP.

Thanks.

Glad to see somebody put in the effort to experiment with this! Thank you as well!

Maybe it's just certain mods that don't behave well with the mod. RHS tends to be a bit inconsistent for example with its vehicles.

It is definitly overpowered. I tested it. Placed 4 PLA Apc and a Tiger helicopter from Bundeswehr Mod. All AI controlled. The Tiger was not able to lock on them and got shot down every time. I replaced the PLA vehicles with Russian CUP tanks and the damn helicopter shredded the tanks with no problem. This really sucks since it would have been a very cool mod.

Originally posted by aDRI:

It is definitly overpowered. I tested it. Placed 4 PLA Apc and a Tiger helicopter from Bundeswehr Mod. All AI controlled. The Tiger was not able to lock on them and got shot down every time. I replaced the PLA vehicles with Russian CUP tanks and the damn helicopter shredded the tanks with no problem. This really sucks since it would have been a very cool mod.

That is because of how things are in CUP.

In CUP, anti-air (missile) vehicles and turrets cannot even lock onto aircraft, considering they are armed with missiles.
I think the same thing happens to ATGM too, could be incorrect.

It is most likely CUP's fault than VME PLA's fault.