Total War: ATTILA

Total War: ATTILA

Medieval Kingdoms 1212 AD Base Pack - Campaign Alpha
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Cozy Moses 22. nov. 2021 kl. 15:47
2
Potential Unintentional Antisemitism?
Hey there. I wanted to start by saying I love this mod and really appreciate the hard work the dev team have put into making a proper medieval 3 experience. Despite the many hours of joy I've had, I did want to mention something that kind of rubbed me (and some others) the wrong way.

While I appreciate the representation allowed by the Jewish Diaspora building chains, some of the descriptions are a bit distasteful. While tongue in cheek, they also lean into some anti-Semitic stereotypes and tropes from both modern and past times. Most lean into the idea of "rich jews" are are jokes based on the premise, and also lean into jokes about them being greedy. The "would it kill you to put a few more dates in there" bit, and the "my RICH nephew" bit both are examples of what I'm talking about. Joking about the diaspora, ("Banished? But I just loaned the king 300 ducats!") also is a little bit tasteless, although I get the reference to real social practices from the era. All that being said, I did find the description for the last tier of building pretty good, so it's not something that I think is intentional or even across the board.


At the same time, some of the mechanics are also a little questionable. "-1 public order across all provinces" confuses me - is this to symbolize rising anti-antisemitism in response to their presence, or is it that the presence of Jewish peoples undermines local governments? There's already natural religious unrest built into the +X jewish population (factionwide) mechanics, so I don't know why specifically the presence of Jewish communities undermines the rule of law with an additional debuff

I raise these concerns only because I love this mod, and love the hard work that your team has put into it. I raise them not because I think you guys are anti-semitic (I do not), but because I thought it relevant to share how a jewish person may interpret some of these mechanics and building descriptions. I'm still playing and would still happily recommend it to others - I just thought there are some items that may be worth changing, as they are not core mechanics.

Edit: Wow, came back to one dumpster fire of a thread. Appreciate those who took the post at face value, glad I'm not the only one. The types of replies that have come in this thread are honestly indicative of the reason I brought it up in the first place.

When you program mechanics that encourage users to expel Jewish Populations because the unrest for even one can destabilize your entire faction, intentionally or not, it's worth having a discussion, even if just one from a gameplay perspective. With just a few of the basic tier 1 jewish settlements my entire empire was collapsing in rebellions after having no problems for 100+ turns.

Even outside of any historical context, from a gameplay perspective it feels like a broken mechanic. From a historical perspective, one jewish neighborhood hundreds of kms away from my capitol shouldn't cause my entire empire to destabilize. And unless the idea is for you to not want to build any in your empire,and to instill the idea that tolerating even one jewish community will cause them to infiltrate and undermine your empire, that debuff should be nerfed. That's literally all I'm suggesting lol.

I'm not saying the unrest mechanic should be removed entirely - believe it or not I understand that people in medieval times were typically anti-semitic. And any benefits a building gives should be balanced with debuffs. But the way it manifests could stand to be nerfed, especially given that Total war ALREADY HAS BUILT IN REILGIOUS INTOLERANCE in the religion mechanics. And frankly the building descriptions speak for themselves.

Again, I'm not saying the devs are racist/antisemites or that the mod is racist, I've played it a ton and I respect people creating incredible works of art for the pure love of the game. I'm not here to 'cancel' anyone or say anyone should not be playing this mod. They should! It's great!

I'm here because I love the mod and just wish to offer a spin in someone in else's shoes for those who don't have the same perspective. Based on this thread it seems a lot of folks could use some more empathy.
Sidst redigeret af Cozy Moses; 12. jan. 2022 kl. 13:21
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Biggus Diggus 24. nov. 2021 kl. 18:09 
2
You are looking for a problem that isn't there. The public disorder is the fact that people of that time would be intolerant. Not everything needs to be anti-semetic. :steamfacepalm:
unity 26. nov. 2021 kl. 6:32 
I agree with the descriptions of the building chain beeing problematic. I felt the same reading it. If it was described by another point of view, for ex as a member of the nobility staring at a jewish neighbourhood forming it would be ok. It would represent the anti-semitism of that time. But the fact that Jews themself speak like that about themself feels wrong.
Mechanically though I understand the debuffs, countering the buffs of banking (that was used by those communities but also by italians and some templars orders).
76561197966020268 2. dec. 2021 kl. 4:44 
In actuality I believe that the Jewish Diaspora building chain should provide a positive impact on public order. I mean come on, it's 1212 and diversity is a strength now. We're not in the early middle ages anymore, right?
However, since this would be overpowered in terms of mechanics in the mod, I would also suggest adding an event related to the building chain, causing widespread disease and depopulation. Depending on the amounts of buildings in an empire, this could vary from having a minor effect locally, to widespread epidemics on a national scale. This would of course be representing an arising and responding anti-semitic segment in the population, (the jealous goyim) that would be poisoning wells in order to frame innocent merchants (the chosen people) a people that just wants to coexist peacefully, not leech off of or destroy nations from within.
Zaney 5. dec. 2021 kl. 23:34 
Waaaa mod not progressive and is historically accurate
Sidst redigeret af Zaney; 5. dec. 2021 kl. 23:35
Wibble 8. dec. 2021 kl. 10:41 
Holy sh!t go outside and touch grass
Propagandhi 9. dec. 2021 kl. 6:17 
i can see your point of view, but it just represents anti semetic thoughts of that time. and there were a lot :/
In the middle ages in Germany there was a pogrom in cities nearly every 50 years (unorganized ofc)
belko 11. dec. 2021 kl. 13:24 
its fiiiiiine
Ocelot 18. dec. 2021 kl. 23:12 
lol
Ragnarok 22. dec. 2021 kl. 11:34 
1
Literally just change the descriptions. That's all that's needed to not be a prick.
El Prezidente 25. dec. 2021 kl. 6:15 
Just change it yourself, I didn't even notice it and I always explained the unrest by the fact that Christians weren't much tolerant of jews
Antonius 26. dec. 2021 kl. 20:36 
People like you are the reason that "historic" media nowadays tries to force inclusiveness to periods where it simply doesn't belong.
Skullgar 5. jan. 2022 kl. 9:17 
3
I like how the most reasonable and well explained concerned getting expressed gets losers coming out of the wood work acting like it's woke. Nothing is "historically accurate" about the building chains. I suppose Catholic/Christian buildings should talk about child molesting and hating women and anyone not quite white enough? It's historically accurate after all.

Or how about an actually historically accurate of the Jewish descriptions that would represent the perspective the Jews had of themselves? Rather than a stereotyped and exaggerated representation. Or even just a fact based one without any unnecessary "flavor" added in.

These games have always been about ahistorical happenings and what ifs just as much as historical and talking about "forcing inclusiveness to periods where it simply doesn't belong" when you can paint the map with Kingdoms that would never have a chance in hell at that, and where historical accuracy goes out the door almost instantly with the first action you take. Quit being so insecure and allow a multi-perspective and multi-cultural view of different aspects and possibilities rather than being too sensitive to allow anything that isn't white, male, or Christian.

This "It explores other cultures, possibilities, and perspectives, it's woke!" ♥♥♥♥ or the "It takes place in China, which means they just want Chinese money!" when people have been asking for a game taking place in mainland Asia for years is why historical games get the short end of the stick. If you don't want inclusive factions or characters because you hate alternate history exploration then just don't play as those characters or factions, let people who give these games fresh takes and new twists and more angles and perspectives the right to do so.
Spice Merchant 9. jan. 2022 kl. 16:12 
Firstly, I want to thank you OP for not coming out in a immature rage which gets nothing done.

Tbh I haven't read the descriptions for most buildings, but if they do say that kind of stuff then I wouldn't mind them being changed.
As for the mechanics and building bonuses/penalties, I don't think those are as big of a problem. Whether or not it is right is another debate, but something to consider that this game (most games for that matter) are depicted from a Christian or Islamic perspective at this time. That boils down to the fact that they were simply more dominate in presence, so they essentially has free reign on perceiving history at this time.
mo0nbuggy1 11. jan. 2022 kl. 23:16 
wow
Hindly 12. jan. 2022 kl. 6:21 
Oprindeligt skrevet af Skullgar:
I like how the most reasonable and well explained concerned getting expressed gets losers coming out of the wood work acting like it's woke. Nothing is "historically accurate" about the building chains. I suppose Catholic/Christian buildings should talk about child molesting and hating women and anyone not quite white enough? It's historically accurate after all.

Or how about an actually historically accurate of the Jewish descriptions that would represent the perspective the Jews had of themselves? Rather than a stereotyped and exaggerated representation. Or even just a fact based one without any unnecessary "flavor" added in.

These games have always been about ahistorical happenings and what ifs just as much as historical and talking about "forcing inclusiveness to periods where it simply doesn't belong" when you can paint the map with Kingdoms that would never have a chance in hell at that, and where historical accuracy goes out the door almost instantly with the first action you take. Quit being so insecure and allow a multi-perspective and multi-cultural view of different aspects and possibilities rather than being too sensitive to allow anything that isn't white, male, or Christian.

This "It explores other cultures, possibilities, and perspectives, it's woke!" ♥♥♥♥ or the "It takes place in China, which means they just want Chinese money!" when people have been asking for a game taking place in mainland Asia for years is why historical games get the short end of the stick. If you don't want inclusive factions or characters because you hate alternate history exploration then just don't play as those characters or factions, let people who give these games fresh takes and new twists and more angles and perspectives the right to do so.

I see your point, however, it does show a bit of historical accuracy perspective. First of all, Catholic/Christian buildings would not have a negative description because it would've been the main influential religion of the europeand kingdoms. When you select a faction, being christian or muslim, you'd expect defamation in that respect and I think what that does is showing the grim side of History. Defamation was a known practice with regards to jewish community or cryptojudaism. I see people commenting saying that inclusiveness would be a better accurate approach, when most of the european kingdoms banished and prosecuted the jewish community between late 13th century and mid 15th. When you say 'Or how about an actually historically accurate of the Jewish descriptions that would represent the perspective the Jews had of themselves?' that's all fine and well, but it wouldn't be something that one of these kingdoms would even consider to be known. If you play, say, a Christian european kingdom, you would expect it being backwards and racist. Sugarcoating this reality just doesn't do justice to anyone. Of course this is the point of view taking into account that you are taking an immersive approach of the campaign. For learning purposes, is a different story. So I don't think it's about insecurity, but immersiveness gameplay.

I personally don't care and in all fairness, we would need infinite patches to please everybody's opinions and feelings. Saying that, modding the text description is something that anybody can do in 10 minutes and a couple of tutorial videos.
Sidst redigeret af Hindly; 12. jan. 2022 kl. 6:23
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