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Another MvM Spy Guide
By Beta
Second edition of a Spy guide I made back in 2013. Intended for new and returning players. Contains tips, tech, and recommended upgrade choices. Seriously? 2013? Wow, I feel old now.
   
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Preamble
With the Valve announcement of new MvM maps and the launch of the Bolted Barbecue event hosted by potato.tf, I decided to write a new guide for people who are interested in picking up what is, in my opinion, the most rewarding class in MvM to play. Except maybe Sniper. Sometimes.

Unfortunately, like all good things, playing Spy in a rewarding way can be difficult. He has quite a few hurdles, both in-game and out, and requires good knowledge of robot behavior, map layout, and wave composition to really, really shine.

If you're a returning player just looking to refresh yourself on how things work, go ahead and skip to the Class Upgrades section or the General Strategy section. If you're new, I'd recommend starting from the top.

And, to address the elephant(s) in the room. Yes, Spy is not the meta. Yes, people will demand you switch off or even vote kick you. Yes, it's honestly so worth it.



(At the time of publishing this guide, my knife has 1000 more robots killed and 200 more giants killed. Spy is so much fun.)
The Basics
Spy is a "pick class", meaning he is designed to swiftly and efficiently take out single high priority targets in the battlefield. This does not change much in the chaotic mess of Mann vs Machine. Your targets are going to be, in order of importance:
  • Uber Medics
  • Giant Medics
  • Other giants
  • Engineers
  • Snipers
  • Small groups of robots coming from flanks
  • Isolated robots you just happen to be near
  • Tanks
In many cases, the bottom 3 targets on the list will already be covered by your teammates. Take them out when you can, but never prioritize them over the top 4 targets. Snipers are fine to handle if you happen to be close by already, but they usually are not a terrible threat compared to the ones above them.

Additionally, as one of the only two classes that can effectively roam the battlefield freely (the other being Scout), Spy is also an excellent money-collector. Scout is hands-down the best with his increased base speed, double jump, and increased money collection radius, but Spy can help Scout when killing happens in unusual areas so that no money is missed.
The Revolver
Your revolver is rarely going to be used because of how much the damage capability is dwarfed by the knives. With this in mind, I only recommend you use either the L'Etranger revolver for its cloak duration boost and cloak regen on hit, or the Diamondback for its capable burst damage on distant targets. You can certainly use other revolvers without losing much, but the L'Etranger and Diamondback are the only revolvers that are really going to make a difference. I personally only use the L'Etranger as I rarely find a good use for the Diamondback's crits.

L'Etranger
The opportune time to use this is when you want to quickly recharge your cloak to safely reengage and get some more stabs on a giant. Keep in mind the few seconds it takes to redisguise; you don't need your cloak to be 100% charged to reengage, only charged enough for it to hit 100% by the time you need it.

Diamondback
The Diamondback allows you to safely deal decent amounts of damage from a distance to stragglers, snipers, giants, and tanks. While I do see the potential value in the ability to more safely or effectively deal with these, your damage against giants will still be eclipsed by your knife, and your damage to tanks will still be eclipsed by almost any other class, save Medic and Sniper, and only occasionally.

If you're good at surviving and don't find a use for the extra cloak all that much, there's no reason not to take the Diamondback, but don't expect the extra damage to wow you.

Upgrades

Don't upgrade the revolver.
The Sapper
Basic Information
Your first real tool, the Sapper has the ability to disable Engineer buildings and damage them over time. In Mann vs Machine, the Sapper is a much more versatile tool, with the ability to completely stun robots (slowing them if they are a giant) for a short time, opening them up to fire from your teammates, as well as backstabs from you. Stunned robots can be backstabbed from any angle!

Unlike in PvP gamemodes, the Sapper in MvM has a charge. Use it once, and you have to wait 15 full seconds to use it again, with no way to expedite the recharge besides an Ammo Canteen. With this in mind, it's important to use it when it will be most impactful, as 15 seconds is quite a long time to wait.

It should be noted that the Red-Tape Recorder is identical in performance to the stock Sapper or any of its reskins, except in one particular scenario described in the Things You Might Not Know section.

Giant Robots
As mentioned previously, giant robots do not get stunned by the Sapper, only slowed. Unfortunately, the slowing tends to not be particularly useful on any giants except Super Scouts and their variants. Super Scouts move at incredible speed, far outpacing most methods of movement available to your team. An experienced team normally does not have difficulty handling these as their speed comes with the cost of relatively low HP, but a good sap and a couple backstabs can easily save the wave if you find one (or two) slipping by.

You will find the slow on giants other than the Super Scout to be disappointingly tame, since giants already move quite slowly. Sapping a giant will only make it die a few feet earlier than it normally would have. Additionally, and importantly, giants have a tendency to look at (but not shoot) you after sapping them, which can make your life just a little bit harder when trying to land several consecutive backstabs on one.

All of that said, however, it's not as bad of an idea as I make it sound. The best time to sap a giant or group of giants is if your team is not currently engaging them. It can buy your team a precious few seconds to recover or clean up before moving on to the giant. Just don't make sapping giants a priority.

Engineer Robots
When Engineers show up on the map, it important to know that sapping an Engineer building will disable your Sapper after placing it, however it will NOT consume the charge, meaning the Sapper will be usable once again as soon as it or the building it is attached to is destroyed. Armed with this knowledge, I'd recommend new players to sap the Engineer's sentry gun first, then backstab the Engineer, otherwise the sentry gun will likely turn and kill you immediately. Take caution to not accidentally sap the Engineer himself, as this WILL consume the charge and leave you without your Sapper to destroy the sentry gun and teleporter. Not a good spot to be in.

If you are confident with your speed, the better strategy to handle Engineer robots would be to simply backstab the Engineer first, then sap the sentry gun immediately afterwards, before it finishes turning to fire at you. This avoids the danger of accidentally sapping the Engineer, but requires you to be quick.

Upgrading
Upon upgrading the Sapper, it gains the ability to stun in a wide radius, and further upgrade points slightly increase the radius, and greatly increase the duration, lasting 7 full seconds when fully upgraded, compared to 4 seconds with 0 or 1 upgrade points. Sapper upgrades make it much safer and easier to deal with the infamous Uber Medics, especially with a reckless team that causes them to activate their Ubercharge.

However, Sapper upgrades are quite pricey, and if you are strapped for cash, it may be wise to opt for only a single point in the upgrade. The increased radius from subsequent upgrades is quite minor and the 4 seconds of stun time is plenty to safely deal with most Uber Medic waves. If you have a talented Sniper or Demo, you may even deem it unnecessary to upgrade your Sapper at all.

Sentry Busters
DO NOT SAP THE SENTRY BUSTERS.
DO NOT SAP THE SENTRY BUSTERS.
DO. NOT. SAP. THE SENTRY BUSTERS.

"But why?"

Your fellow Engineer teammates need to be able to force the Sentry Buster to detonate as early as possible so they can get their sentry back into the action as early as possible. Sapping the Busters just delays that. Even if that wasn't true, it's also just a waste of a Sapper. They aren't part of the main wave, it's probably not the first Sentry Buster in the wave, and it's definitely not the last.
The Knife
The Spy's main weapon. All of Spy's knives are capable of backstabbing, instantly killing your foe in one clean hit, or in the case of giant robots, dealing massive amounts of burst damage. This is by far the primary method you will be using to score kills and deal damage.

Giant Robots
Like the Sapper, the Knife has special properties when used against giant robots. Instead of instantly killing, the Knife will deal an extremely large amount of damage per backstab. The Armor Penetration upgrade determines exactly how much damage you deal, with each upgrade adding an additional flat amount of damage, 187.5 to be specific*. The exact values per upgrade are as follows (rounded up, as you would see in-game):
  • 0: 188
  • 1: 375
  • 2: 563
  • 3: 750
  • 4: 938
It is useful to know approximately how many stabs it takes to kill a giant, and you can very loosely gauge this by just adding 1 to the first number in the giant's health bar, so, for example, a Giant Heavy with 5000 HP takes 6 stabs to kill. The most useful breakpoints to know, in my opinion, are Super Scouts taking 2 stabs to kill, and Giant Medics taking 5 stabs to kill, as most of the time you won't be able to consistently get enough stabs to kill on any other giant robot.

I mentioned in the previous section that you should not waste your sapper on Sentry Busters, and to compound that advice, Sentry Busters cannot be backstabbed, despite technically being a giant. It's best to simply not engage Sentry Busters at all. Your focus is better spent on other things.

*To be even more specific, the Armor Penetration upgrade determines what percentage of 750 damage you deal, at 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%, and 125% for each upgrade level.

Upgrades
When picking what upgrades to buy, try to keep in mind the next wave's composition, seen at the top of your screen. Armor Penetration adds dramatically more DPS against giants than attack speed, so if there are many giants, upgrade Armor Penetration. If not, go with attack speed in order to more effectively take out small groups.

Health on Kill can give you some additional uptime and help counteract the constant chip damage you will likely be taking. If you find yourself getting worn down over time, one or two points in this upgrade can help keep you topped up.

Do not buy Crits on Kill. It does not cause backstab damage and the extra damage it DOES cause is negligible compared to actual backstabs.
Which Knife to Use
Unlike Spy's other weapons, your choice of knife is largely up to preference. Each knife has pros and cons, and it's up to you to decide which ones are worthwhile to you and your playstyle.

Stock
No upsides, downsides, or gimmicks, the stock Knife is a reliable and effective choice. You can't go wrong using this, and there is no extra mechanic you need to learn to properly utilize or work around.

I personally run stock, and definitely not because it's the only knife that comes in an Australium variant.

Big Earner
Using this knife can dramatically shorten the downtime after retreating, as it and the L'Etranger are the only methods available to speed up the cloak regeneration speed (you will be using the Dead Ringer exclusively, more in the next section). With other knives you have to wait to regenerate your Dead Ringer, but the Big Earner allows you to simply be more aggressive to regenerate your cloak, with 2 kills typically refilling your cloak entirely, assuming you didn't run it completely dry.

The health loss however will be noticeable, with many engagements causing you to take damage that would've otherwise not been fatal if using a different knife. You will need to take extra care to stay topped up, and this may include getting an extra Health on Kill upgrade, Health Regeneration upgrade, or early resistance upgrades.

Conniver's Kunai
The Conniver's Kunai completely bypasses the need to get any sort of health restoration upgrades, as the health steal effect vastly outshines any other form of health regeneration, excepting a fully upgraded Medic teammate. Maybe. It will also nullify bleed and afterburn upon a successful backstab kill, two more reasons why you may find yourself seeking out a health kit.

The downside is obvious, even if ultimately negligible: your max health is now tiny. This does not matter however as robots will NOT target you when disguised, making it trivial to get the critical first backstab and obtain the Kunai's signature overheal. The significantly reduced max health does have an unexpected upside, however: Medic teammates can now revive you in nearly half the time, as revive speed is determined by the maximum health of the person being revived.

Spy-cicle
At first, I think this knife appears to be a no-brainer "avoid", but since you can speed up the regeneration process if you lose it by picking up ammo boxes, some players (or some missions (or some specific waves IN a mission)) may actually find the fire immunity to be handy. Pyros are rarely as big of a threat in MvM as they are in PvP gamemodes, so for most cases you will find this knife to effectively be a reskin of the stock Knife, but with the occasional save from Pyros that you otherwise might not get.

However, keep in mind that activating the Dead Ringer can grant an similar but superior effect, making the fire immunity granted from the Spy-cicle feel redundant at times, and you may frequently end up triggering both the Spy-cicle immunity and Dead Ringer damage reduction at the same time anyway, since the Dead Ringer is your chief weapon to get away from the horde safely.

With this in mind I personally would not recommend new or returning players to use the Spy-cicle, but feel free to go nuts with it if you have already got the hang of playing Spy.

Your Eternal Reward
Do not use this. The knife's only upside does not function as it does in PvP; you do not get a new disguise instantly. This means you have a regular stock Knife with increased cloak drain and disguises consuming your entire cloak meter.

Do not use this.
The Invis Watch
Use the Dead Ringer, full stop. Genuinely, if you do not have the Dead Ringer, do not bother playing Spy. In MvM, your cloak is not meant to be sneaky. It is meant to save you from dying, and the Dead Ringer is the only watch that will actually do this with the insane damage resistance it grants upon activation.

You will want to preemptively pull it out whenever you feel in danger at all. You can only get a handful of backstabs off of robots before they notice you and shoot at you, especially on giant robots. Spy has the highest target priority in the game*, so unfortunately you're in danger basically all of the time, and therefore you should never engage without a full cloak meter unless you're using the Big Earner.

Get in, get as many stabs as you can, activate Dead Ringer, wait for recharge (and grab health kits if you need it), repeat. If you're waiting for cloak to recharge and you're in a safe spot, you can take a few pot shots with the L'Etranger at the horde or a giant to expedite the recharge.

It is vital to be aware that robots tend to continue firing at the last place they saw you for a second or two after you cloak with the Dead Ringer. You are not safe as soon as you activate it; you must also leave the area and find cover, otherwise robots can and will kill you through your cloak, even with the large damage resistance it grants, and especially if they are crit boosted.

*Medics actually have special priority when healing a Spy. This is explained in further detail in the Exploiting Target Priority section.
The Disguise Kit
The Disguise Kit allows you to take the appearance of any enemy class of your choosing, fooling enemies into thinking you are an ally. In MvM, robots are always fooled by your disguise, except when you are on fire. I would not recommend disguising as anything other than a Scout, as disguising as a class with a slower movement speed than Spy will make you move that slower speed.

In case you are not already aware, there is a hotkey to immediately activate your last used disguise without having to switch to and open up the Disguise Kit, with the default key being B. While retreating, you'll want to hit this hotkey while activating the Dead Ringer so that your disguise will be ready as soon as possible. In general it is good practice to simply hit the key as soon as you make the decision to retreat. If you're also on fire, find a medkit or dispenser quickly to extinguish yourself and prevent robots from seeing through your disguise.
Class Upgrades
Spy does not have a fixed upgrade route, unlike many other classes. Every upgrade you choose should be reflective of the upcoming or current wave, though generally, you should focus on increasing damage first. I've discussed the upgrades for the knives and the Sapper in the The Knife section and the The Sapper section, so refer to those for which upgrades to buy, and when. Here, I will discuss the character/class upgrades found in the first tab, as well as briefly touch on canteens. I would not recommend upgrading these unless you have spare cash, or until your knife is maxed on on Armor Penetration and Attack Speed.

Blast/Bullet/Fire/Crit Resistance
Choosing your resistances is the same as choosing them for any other class: Upgrade the resistances that will be most common in the upcoming wave. On Spy, I personally find explosives to be much more frequently fatal than the other damage types, so if you're split between choosing Blast Resistance and some other resistance, I recommend choosing Blast Resistance.

Movement Speed and Jump Height
These upgrades are fantastic on Spy, allowing you to catch up to and disable or eliminate some of the more nimble robots, even Super Scouts if you know any map shortcuts. They're also incredibly handy for collecting money to help ease some of the burden off of your Scout allies, especially if there aren't any priority targets on the map. If you want to boost your money collection ability early on, bump these upgrades to top priority.

Movement speed also drastically improves your ability to circle-strafe giants when the opportunity arises. It may be worth taking this early if you are confident and effective in your ability to circle-strafe.

Health Regeneration
This is honestly a game-changer for Spy. In the The Knife section, I described the chip damage you frequently take and that Health on Kill on your knife can help to mitigate that. Health Regeneration upgrades do this passively, constantly, allowing you to heal while retreating and waiting for your cloak to regenerate. Just one upgrade on this will make a difference, but I never find myself needing more than 3. If you happen to have the cash to max it out, you will be able to stay active almost constantly, healing back to full in no more than 13 seconds, which is less time than it takes for your Sapper to recharge.

If you use the Conniver's Kunai, it is unlikely that you will find the need for this upgrade at all, and I would recommend skipping over this one.

Canteens
You may be surprised to hear me actually suggest using the Recall canteen over anything else. While an Uber canteen can help you get some extra backstabs off in a pinch, and a Crit canteen might help you eliminate a tank just in the nick of time, the Recall canteen gives you the fastest method back to spawn in case a robot, particularly a Super Scout, manages to slip past your frontline.

You may also consider using Ammo canteens, which would allow you to instantly refill your cloak or sapper in a pinch. Since there's few other ways to refill your cloak, and NO other ways to refill your sapper, using these canteens can help you stay up at the front longer than you might normally be able to, or stun bigger waves (with an upgraded sapper) than you otherwise could.

The extra backstabs from Uber canteens and the extra tank damage from Crit canteens are normally not necessary. Backstabs can eliminate over half of a giant's health all on their own, and honestly if you run Spy you kind of accept that you're not going to be engaging tanks to begin with unless there is literally no other target.

If you run Recall canteens, you can expect to save the wave multiple times throughout your games. Stuff WILL get past your team, and on community missions, they will get past a LOT.
General Strategy
Some strategies were discussed surrounding when and how to use your various weapons in their respective sections, but here I will cover more generic strategies and tasks that you should execute while playing in your average match. The strategies here are listed in order of importance:


0. Forget everything I've said before and just play it by ear
MvM has a lot going on and there are a lot of decisions to make at any particular moment. Always do whatever YOU think is most important in the moment. If a giant is already nearly dead, go ahead and ignore it to take out some Snipers or collect some stray money. Adhering to a strict target list is not wise when you're playing Spy. You can refer to this as a general guide for many situations, but things are going to be all over the place in the midst of the chaos. Do not be rigid. This includes switching off of Spy if he doesn't have a good place in the current wave.



1. Defend the bomb
Stragglers can and will carry the bomb past your team at some point during your Spy career. Unless in a well-coordinated team, it is safe to assume that nobody else sees it and you should immediately chase down the bomb carrier and their cohorts to prevent a sudden back-cap. Scouts can sometimes do this job better than you, but it really depends on what is carrying the bomb. An upgraded Sapper can help out a lot if it happens to be quite a few robots, since robots with no targets tend to look around erratically and they will usually spot you immediately after the first stab.


2. Don't die
This one is not at the top because sometimes it's worth it to die in order to defend or stall the bomb. But if you're not in immediate danger of losing, don't die. Prioritize surviving over dealing damage. You can't take out giants and Uber Medics if you're dead. Don't go for those extra stabs if you're not confident you'll make it out alive.


3. Kill Giant Medics specifically
Giant Medics are your highest priority when not in an emergency. They make their heal target effectively invincible and will never turn around to face you while you're attacking them. As mentioned before, they go down in 5 clean backstabs (with max Armor Penetration upgrades), and since they ignore you completely, they are almost always a free kill that eases a ton of burden off of your team.


3.5. Super Scouts and Uber Medics
These targets are in a bit of a weird spot.

Super Scouts die in a measly 2 backstabs, but at the same time they're usually handled easily via bodyblocking from your Heavy or Engineer teammates. If one slips past at all, do not hesitate to immediately hit your Recall canteen in order to catch up to it and finish it off; Recall canteens are insanely cheap, so don't worry about wasting them. If you don't have maximum movement speed upgrades, chances are you are not going to catch up to it on foot without some insane shortcut. Keep an eye out for them and kill (or even just sap) them when you can to eliminate their risk, but you shouldn't usually have to worry too much if your team is prepared.

Uber Medics, on the other hand, will die instantly and can get stunned by your Sapper, but there are some waves where they follow around smaller, fodder robots, making it a lot harder to stay on top of things. Any burst damage class can deal with Uber Medics before they activate or "pop" their Ubercharge, including Spy, but Spy is the bottom rung of the "dealing with Uber Medics" ladder. If you have a strong Sniper or Demo on your team, expect the Uber Medics to explode in your face before you can reach them, but be ready to kill them nonetheless.


4. Giant Robots
Spy is the natural predator of giants. Dealing almost 1000 damage per backstab, your potential damage to giants is unrivalled, however most of the time you'll find yourself unable to actually kill a giant by yourself without breaking off to redisguise or circle-strafing like a madman. It is ok to just weaken them. In almost all cases you'll still be able to knock off well over half of their HP, making it a breeze for your team to finish them off. Don't bother trying to handle them all by yourself; just deal what damage you can before the giant notices you, and then back off.


5. Collect Money
If you find a moment of downtime during the middle of a wave, take the time to search around and help your Scout collect money. Your Scout teammates aren't always going to be able collect everything by themselves, so help them out when you can. Bonus points if you collect stray money while moving to a new target.


6. Snipers, Engineers
The last on your priority list. Taking out Snipers requires little explanation beyond "backstab them". If you are using the Diamondback, you can take them out from a distance with one or two well-placed crit shots. When taking out Engineers, the recommended order of operation is to first stab the Engineer, sap the sentry immediately afterwards, optionally speed up the sentry destruction by shooting or stabbing it, and then sap the teleporter. Once the teleport is sapped, it gets disabled, despite visual effects telling you otherwise. Move on to new targets once the teleporter is sapped.


7. Hordes, Stragglers, and Tanks
These targets are the furthest outside of Spy's job description, but there's no reason not to help out if there's nothing else around to do - a common occurance at the start of waves. Take out some Heavies or Soldiers, the odd Scout or Pyro here and there, etc. Steel Gauntlets and Samurai Demos are particularly vulnerable to Spy owing to the fact that they are not technically giants, so they can be stunned with the Sapper and insta-killed with a backstab all the same.

Spy only tickles tanks, so they should be the last thing you're targeting. Stored Diamondback crits would do well being unloaded into a tank if you are using it.

Remember, this is NOT a hard-and-fast list.
The biggest thing you can do is to try and help your team handle situations they currently cannot. Ignoring a giant to disable an Engineer is often more helpful than the other way around. Do not be rigid.
Exploiting Target Priority
This knowledge is so exploitable that I believe it deserves its own section.

When giants are deciding what to shoot at, there is a special exception for if a Medic is healing their current target. If they are, they choose to shoot at the Medic instead. Since Spy is nearly always the highest priority target, giant robots will ignore you and shoot at your Medic ally if the Medic is currently healing you.

This is extraordinarily exploitable, especially on boss waves, but in practice can actually turn out difficult to pull off due to other damage sources potentially inflicting insane knockback on you or your Medic ally, breaking the healing beam. There is a guide by sigsegv that at least partially covers the mechanics, and you can read more about it HERE, under "Strategy: threat prioritization".

Sigsegv's guide provides more complete information about how it works and what determines the behavior, but all you need to know for the sake of playing Spy is that the overwhelming majority of giant robots will adhere to this rule, and you can tell whether or not any particular robot will follow this rule by their eye color: yellow eyes means they will, blue eyes means they will not.

An important exception to this rule you should know is the Major Bomber boss. Strangely, it's AI level is not set high enough for it to prioritize Medics as a target, so this strategy will NOT work against it. Major Bomber is the final boss of the Disintegration mission, on the map Decoy.

To clear up a common misconception, Medics do NOT have higher priority than Spy. Spy supersedes everything EXCEPT when THEY are being healed by the Medic. Only then does the Medic beat them.

If you manage to coordinate with a Medic, the results can be spectacular:

Shoutouts to Luke Skywalker. I wish I had seen my stats at the end of this game.
Things You Might Not Know
If you've read everything up to now, you hopefully know the gist of how to play Spy and what objectives you should trying to achieve as him. This section provides some basic and some advanced tips and tech for playing with and as Spy. The information listed is not in any particular order.

  • Pay attention to the map layout and try to memorize where side paths and shortcuts are. The presence and usage of these makes a tremendous difference in your ability to perform well as Spy. There's often so much damage being sent down the bomb path that trying to squeeze by the horde is tantamount to suicide, so use these paths whenever possible.

  • The Red-Tape Recorder has a bug that causes Engineer robots to not attempt to remove the Sapper while it is attached to a teleporter. You can get a no-effort teleporter destruction this way, and this technically makes the Red-Tape Recorder a direct upgrade to the stock Sapper, but it is by no means necessary to use.

  • Robots continue to track AND shoot at you for a few seconds after turning invisible. This is why it is very important to run away after activating Dead Ringer. Your Dead Ringer will not save you; only cover will, and your Dead Ringer just helps you get there.


  • Bodyblocking robots while disguised will eventually make them recognize that you are a Spy and attack you. It's fine to bodyblock for a few seconds, but generally, try to stay out of the path of robots, and especially giants.

  • Do not f*ck with Giant Crit-boosted Pyros. Get your 3 stabs and get out. They will melt you.

  • Mentioned in the The Sapper section, stunned robots can be backstabbed from any angle, but this does not only apply to bots stunned by the Sapper specifically. The other most common case you'll see are on maps like Mannhattan, where all non-giant robots on the map get stunned after capturing a gate. You can use this opportunity to help clean up the map by mowing through as many bots as you can.



  • Robots do not care if you cloak or decloak in front of them. They are very stupid. After retreating with your Dead Ringer, decloak as soon as you are safe and your disguise is ready.

  • Spy has a passive ability that reveals cloaked robot Spies in a large radius around him. This can help to spot Spies early and have your team deal with them if you know where robot Spy spawn locations are, as they do not spawn out of the front gates alongside the rest of the wave they are in.

  • Giant robots tend to react more slowly to you if they're currently under fire from your team. For safer and potentially more effective engagements, you may opt to wait until your team has engaged the giants you wish to target. Keep in mind that you will still not usually find yourself getting more than 3 backstabs, rarely getting 4, but the slightly delayed reaction from the giant can give you more time to safely escape after getting your 3 stabs.

  • When you opt to upgrade your movement speed, it may be wise to attempt to circle-strafe isolated giants in order to score additional backstabs. Giants do not typically turn smoothly, often allowing you to just barely reach their back for an additional stab before they turn again. I personally find circle-strafing to be difficult to consistently pull off, but I'm sure there are methods to increase the consistency further. If the giant has an entourage with them, however, it may be better to skip the circle-strafing attempt and stab them normally to avoid a potential death.
I think that's basically it
Go murderize some robots.

I feel this guide is a bit incomplete as it does not have as many gifs as I would like. I'll be trying to capture relevant clips whenever possible to add them to the guide. The text information is complete (enough), though. Thank you for reading, and I am hoping this guide provided the help for new Spy players that I intended it to.
7 Comments
Beta  [author] 17 Sep @ 9:59am 
I didn't actually write it to cover custom MvM, despite the gifs being from custom missions. But you convinced me enough to add a small paragraph explaining the "not all giants" and the eye color bit. Sigsegv's guide is right there for players who are interested in the more technical details.
Floro 17 Sep @ 6:45am 
Charged soldiers shoot crits. An error in judgement with them is far more punishing than with other robots.

You've written this guide to apply to custom MvM, where mission makers are at complete liberty to set their bot AI levels however they please. There's no shortage of easy AI giant pyros in such mission, them being giants is not the correct visual cue to look for to assess how they will react - it's their eye colour that will tell you how effective a medic pocket will be.

I understand this is written for new players - by giving them accurate information and an accurate framework within the which one can construct new information and ideas right away, you're sparing them the trouble of needing to amend or add asterisks later down the line.

This is solidly written, and I want to be able to reference this as an accurate resource for people to use; though I'd rather not contribute to certain myths being more widespread than they need to be.
Beta  [author] 17 Sep @ 4:27am 
Forgot to reply to the Spy-cicle comment as well, but it's the same deal. It's good to know, but I would not recommend using the Spy-cicle anyway unless you've gotten a good feel for Spy already, and if you're gotten a good feel for Spy already, you don't need my guide.
Beta  [author] 17 Sep @ 4:22am 
I did read them. I felt it was unnecessary information to include considering the target audience of my guide, also considering this part at the very start of the guide:

"Giant robots almost always have Expert skill. As a general rule (at least in Valve's missions), engineer and spy bots always have Expert skill, and sniper bots usually have Hard (but sometimes Expert) skill."

I disagree about the "especially on boss waves" part being moot (why would one exception make it moot?) but I agree that the information should be included. I've edited the section to clarify Major Bomber. I actually didn't know that, thank you for letting me know.

Super Scouts are not an important exception to include because they die like instantly, and Charged Soldiers are one of TWELVE Giant Soldier variants. I do not want to inundate new (to Spy) players with technical information that will rarely (for Charged Soldiers) or never (for Super Scouts) be used.
Floro 17 Sep @ 3:56am 
Please, read your own sources.

The guide you quoted in your "Exploiting Target Priority" section mentions that robots target an enemy healer based on their skill level (the focal point of the guide), not based on whether they are giants.

-Hard and above robots do prioritize an enemy's healer, regardless of whether they are giants.

-There's a number of giants that are not above hard AI. Chief among them charged soldiers, super scouts, and most notably, Major Bomber, a boss. Medic will either be an inconsistent, or an ineffective aggro sponge against these. Considering there aren't many bosses, "especially on boss waves" is moot, and warrants clarification.
Floro 17 Sep @ 3:55am 
You don't lose the spy-cicle if you get set on fire while your sapper is on cooldown, but you still gain the fire immunity. This is an important consideration when discussing the spy-cicle and whether you'd want it.
Haunt 13 Aug @ 3:39am 
I wish every class had a guide of the same depth and quality for MvM--great work!