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Turn-Based Tactics TBTactics
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Alle diskussioner > General discussions > Trådoplysninger
Captain_Narol 22. juli 2019 kl. 5:30
Comparative Test : IMPERATOR:ROME Vs FoG:EMPIRES
Having played both games, I believe I can try to make an objective step-by-step comparison between those two games, so that potential buyers of both games can get an informed opinion.

MAP : Advantage IMPERATOR

The map of Imperator is very detailled and truely beautiful, and the most beautiful map ever made by Paradox. The map of Empires is nice but clearly can't fight.


NUMBER OF FACTIONS : Advantage IMPERATOR

Empires has 77 playable nations which is already great, but Imperator offers much more.


FACTIONS FLAVOR : Advantage EMPIRES

Each faction in Empires has a different set of units, and lots of them have specific rules. Compared to that, factions in Imperator feel quite generic as apart from the distinction between Republics/Monarchies/Tribes all factions play quite the same.


UNIT TYPES : Advantage EMPIRES

Empires offers a wide choice of unit types for each faction, while the choice is very milited in Imperator


COMBAT : Advantage EMPIRES (if using FOG II, otherwise Draw)

In both games, combat is quite hands-off, but the option to export battles in FOG II is a strong plus for Empires. FOG II Is a gem and the best tactical simulator of ancient warfare ever made. I would however recommend to make it only for major battles, as otherwise the game would take much too long.


AI EFFICIENCY : Advantage EMPIRES

the AI in Empires is quite good and take advantage of your weakness to attack you where you have trouble defending, while the AI in Imperator often do silly things.


DIPLOMACY : Advantage IMPERATOR

Diplomacy in Imperator is one of the strong points of the game, with 8 different sorts of relationship between nations, even if some unrealistic gamified rules sadly limits the possibilities. Compared to it, the Diplomacy in Empires is quite simplified and lacks depth. It's also more random, which can be quite frustrating.



INTERNAL POLITICS : Advantage IMPERATOR

Both games rely a lot on the notion of Loyalty, but Imperator offers you some tools to manipulate the senate (for republics), making internal politics an interesting mini-game of wits.



CHARACTERS : Advantage IMPERATOR

Imperator has lots of characters, which allows for better immersion and some roleplay. It really needs more character interactions to expand on that strong point. In Empires, you only have your nation leader and a few general, so it's very lmited.



BUILDINGS : Advantage EMPIRES

In Empires, most of your kingdom management is made through buildings, it's a very clever system and buildings really have a major impact. With more than 400 building types, it definitely crushes Imperator on that point.


POPULATION MANAGEMENT : Advantage EMPIRES

Empires allows you to affect your population to different activities, giving you a lot of flexibility and making population matter a lot.


LAWS MANAGEMENT : Advantage IMPERATOR

Empires doesn't really have a law system apart from some events, so there isn't a fight on that point.


TRADE : Advantage EMPIRES

Trade is far more developped in Empires, and some buildings require specific ressources, while Trade in Imperator doesn't matter much apart for unlocking some unit types and small bonus here and there.


CHALLENGE : Advantage EMPIRES

Between the WEGO system (which makes harder to anticipate the moves of your enemies) and the progress/decadence system (which can make the biggest empires crumble fast), Empires is really a lot more challenging and you can't expand as fast as in Imperator without risks.


POLISH : Advantage EMPIRES

Empires has been carefully beta tested and offers a much more polished experience than Imperator, which is currently a mess and under full reconstruction after a disastrous launch.


FUN FACTOR : Advantage IMPERATOR

That's quite subjective, but because of the characters and easier expansion, I find Imperator more fun to play, while Empires is more of a challenge and serious simulation. That's just my personal taste, however.



FINAL SCORE : EMPIRES 9 / IMPERATOR 7


It's a close battle, but Empires seems objectively a slightly better game at the present time, winning on a majority of points. Still each game has its strong points and weaknesses, and an ideal game would mix both.

Depending on what matters the most for you, it can totally make sense to prefer one to the other or the contrary, so the choice is really a question of taste.
Sidst redigeret af Captain_Narol; 22. juli 2019 kl. 10:40
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amandachen 22. juli 2019 kl. 5:32 
Well, Imperator is no way near being finished.
Saint Scylla 22. juli 2019 kl. 5:39 
Thanks for this analysis, Captain :)
DeLastOne 22. juli 2019 kl. 8:27 
I really like AGEOD :) https://gtm.steamproxy.vip/app/1011390/discussions/0/1640917367342202090/

POCUS is so responsive to the threads and comunauty feedback.

Sidst redigeret af DeLastOne; 22. juli 2019 kl. 8:28
Captain_Narol 22. juli 2019 kl. 8:39 
Indeed, AGEOD and Pocus (the lead Dev) are far more attentive and reactive to Players Feedback than Johan and Paradox, which might explain why Empires was already more polished at launch than Imperator 3 month later...

On the other hand, Paradox is not afraid to rework their games completely by changing core mechanics after lots of negative feedback and some time of reflection (goodbye, Mana...) so Imperatpr might be a much better game in a few months/years.... Or Not, if the changes fall flat but only time will tell !
DeLastOne 22. juli 2019 kl. 9:10 
Oprindeligt skrevet af Captain_Narol:
Indeed, AGEOD and Pocus (the lead Dev) are far more attentive and reactive to Players Feedback than Johan and Paradox, which might explain why Empires was already more polished at launch than Imperator 3 month later...

On the other hand, Paradox is not afraid to rework their games completely by changing core mechanics after lots of negative feedback and some time of reflection (goodbye, Mana...) so Imperatpr might be a much better game in a few months/years.... Or Not, if the changes fall flat but only time will tell !

Yes I do agree with you on this... but the method... the method... I dislike what they just did . I was so upset about the quality at launch after all those stream on twitch and the guy from Marketing (Rodrik?) constant blablabla and positivism... I should find for you this moment where he said : "It is the best game we did and I love it. I did play deeply CK2 but Imperator is now my favorite game" and the dev looked back and say : "Nooo really ? It cannot be..." I should have known back then lol

Paradox did really lost a lot of my trust on this. A bit like CA with Rome 2 at launch and the Attila technical mess :) It took a few years for them to regain my trust.

And I really love Stellaris :)
Sidst redigeret af DeLastOne; 22. juli 2019 kl. 9:16
impsuley 22. juli 2019 kl. 9:48 
How about Aggressors: Ancient Rome?
Captain_Narol 22. juli 2019 kl. 10:25 
I love Aggressors and even worked a little as voluntary helper with the Dev team, so I wouldn't be objective.

I would just say that Aggressors feels more like a tactical wargame build on a Civ-like traditional structure, while both those games are more "grand strategy" focused on kingdom management.
Sidst redigeret af Captain_Narol; 22. juli 2019 kl. 10:27
JimmysTheBestCop 22. juli 2019 kl. 10:48 
Imperator has so many negative steam reviews it's crazy. Only paradox game I haven't bought on launch since before CK2.

I really enjoyed Ck2 and EU4 when they launched. I think some of their DLC added cool stuff but the base vanilla game was really strong at launch.

I guess HOI4 and Stellaris were misses for me. Stellaris just not my personal favorite as I don't care for 4x games but I wanted to try it.

Hoi4 I thought was strange at launch. As it was a good polished game but I felt it completely lacked any depth and I quickly stopped playing it. I was checked out before the 1st dlc even launched.

Ck2 and euiv I lasted through multiple dlc and probably took over 2 years to just stop playing them from over use.

So much negativity around Imperator I can't even bring myself to purchase it.
Captain_Narol 22. juli 2019 kl. 11:05 
For the record, I gave Imperator a positive review despise its flaws, as I feel the backlash was far much excessive (even if indeed deserved) and I have fun playing it overall.

It's a cool map-painter that feels somehow like a casualized version of other Paradox games, shallow at this point but entertaining if you don't take it too seriously.

Tytalus 22. juli 2019 kl. 12:08 
I'll throw in my two cents also.

There is a comparison by a chap on the Paradox forum, which pretty well aligns with my thoughts. See here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/shots-fired-by-slitherine.1201378/page-4#post-25639411

Mostly I agree with Captain's assessment, but there are a few areas I disagree:


COMBAT : Advantage EMPIRES (if using FOG II, otherwise Draw)

"In both games, combat is quite hands-off, but the option to export battles in FOG II is a strong plus for Empires. FOG II Is a gem and the best tactical simulator of ancient warfare ever made. I would however recommend to make it only for major battles, as otherwise the game would take much too long."

To me, THE way to play FoG:E is with FoG:2 for the important battles. If you do, the game is amazing. If not, then it is decent.


INTERNAL POLITICS : Advantage EMPIRE rather than IMPERATOR

"Both games rely a lot on the notion of Loyalty, but Imperator offers you some tools to manipulate the senate (for republics), making internal politics an interesting mini-game of wits."

While Imperator has more political bells and whistles, I think FoGE has much more meaningful internal management due to the decadence system. So Imperator's is more complex, FoGEs is better.


POLISH : Advantage was IMPERATOR, now EMPIRES

"Empires has been carefully beta tested and offers a much more polished experience than Imperator, which is currently a mess and under full reconstruction after a disastrous launch."

Actually, I think Imperator was pretty polished on launch... it just wasn't fun. They are now in a major redesign, to the "best" version of Imperator is now the equivalent of an early beta.


FUN FACTOR : Advantage EMPIRE rather than IMPERATOR

"That's quite subjective, but because of the characters and easier expansion, I find Imperator more fun to play, while Empires is more of a challenge and serious simulation. That's just my personal taste, however."

I very much disagree here. While I've loved other PDS games, Imperator was just a bit dull. FoGE(+FoG2) on the other hand has me more hooked than any game for a long while.


MY FINAL SCORE : EMPIRES 9 / IMPERATOR 7

I agree here. Empires is great. Imperator isn't bad, but it isn't great either, and is certainly the weakest PDS game for a long while. (I've also given Imperator a positive review, because it isn't as bad as the steam reviews suggest).

My verdict. Play FoGE+FoG2 now. Play Imperator in about 18 months once depth has been added.


AND SOME THOUGHTS

To me the big difference is that FoGE plays like a game (and a very good one), while Imperator plays like a simulation (an okay one).

In a similar way to the Europa Universalis (the first one), FoGE feel like a very complex board game. Sicily for instance has only four provinces. Mostly nations only have one or two armies, a dozen provinces. It means every decision is meaningful. "Do i take my second legion and move it north as back-up against the Celtic invasion, or do I try to quickly expel the Greeks from southern italy with it first?"

FoGE also feel MUCH fresher. Everything seem new and different. Imperator (sadly) just recycled and streamlined (simplified) mechanics from previous paradox games.... it basically suffered from some bad initial design choices to focus on multiplayer streamlining over single player depth.







Tytalus 22. juli 2019 kl. 12:14 
Oprindeligt skrevet af impsuley:
How about Aggressors: Ancient Rome?

I only played a bit of Agressors. I'd describe it as a "civ-like".

By contrast, FoGE feels like it deliberately looked at every mechanic that in Civ that became a strategy gaming staple and said "how can we do that differently?".
Gloomseeker 23. juli 2019 kl. 2:14 
I don't like Paradox for their DLC policy. I mean I could get behind them when it was all about supporting a niche genre and a specific title like CK2 that has received support years after its release but with hindsight they really take things too far milking their fanbase dry.

And what I've just posted comes from a guy who even bought the smartphone app because that was the only way to unlock the extra song and event in CK2.

I think the turning point for me was when they decided to put India on the map in CK2 which was something that was both unecessary and stressed the limits of their engine. Ever since the game has been "cheating" in order to keep track of all the npcs (the more people you have in your court the less kids you can get but this has become worse and the game tends to wipe NPCs into oblivion which is something you may have noticed).

Bottom line I've decided that I will only follow one of their games because it's just too expensive to keep up with more than one.

I don't like what they did as publishers with Tyranny and I have very little faith in Bloodlines 2 because of their track record. Sorry for the rant.

Considering all these points if I have to choose I will definitely be going for Empires instead.
barkas85 16. aug. 2019 kl. 14:10 
Oprindeligt skrevet af amandachen:
Well, Imperator is no way near being finished.
But they released it non the less. What does that tell you?
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