You mean Vitality? It increases your equip load, but you don't really need it that much depending on the build.

I can make a perfectly fine build with SL 100 or SL 120. SL 120 is better IMO, because it allows people to have support Miracles/Spells and it also helps a lot when going for pure INT or hybrid builds or even Dark/Pyro. You always need to hit soft/med caps for Vigor and Endurance. I don't see a point going beyond 40 there. People who want to stick at SL 100 are going to gimp themselves and they are probably one of those people who just stick with the boring Quality with no hybrids or support spells.

So i am going for a 120 build, everything is already planned.

Level 120, Started Class Assassin

Vigor 35
Attunement 20
Endurance 35
Vitality 10
Strength 18
Dexterity 40
Intelligence 11
Faith 30
Luck 10

4 Ring Slots, Main Weapon: Farron UGS and a Chime.
Hornet, FaP +2, Bloodring, and that ring where you take extra damage, but you get + 5 VIG, END and VIT.
Maybe a backup weapon, if my equip load can take it. And i will probably switch the Bloodring out for something else.

I'm going beyond 40 vigor as I need to fast roll with full Tarkus's stuff. Greatsword and all.

Yea, i want to know about this topic... 120 sounds nice indeed, but usually the lower, the better, maybe 100 is also good. Just to know, and it hurts saying this, Wonderglue, with 18/40 in offense and 30 and faith, that means, a lot of OFFENSIVE POWER, also 35 endurance and 20 in attunement, that means, a lot of utility, it's OP to have 35 vigor. The point of builds should be balance, and having both high health, high damage and high utility...

Maybe 100 is a better level, taking into account that there are a lot of parameters, but a lot of them are useless for all the builds. A lot of melee builds won't put points into att, int or fth (or put a bit only), and a lot of them not into luck (unless bleed build), mages wont put into str, dex or luck (usually) etc so... effectivelly talking, there are less parameters

I just see too many stats arround 40 to feel that's balanced

PD: for fightclubs, with password sign, im reading that level doesnt matter and gets adjusted to fair duels.. we need to find specific info about that-

100 sounds good I suppose.
I'm gonna need to go a little over to fast roll in my shit. Black Iron Shield, Greatsword, Full Black Iron Armour...

Originally posted by DarkK Raziel:

Yea, i want to know about this topic... 120 sounds nice indeed, but usually the lower, the better, maybe 100 is also good. Just to know, and it hurts saying this, Wonderglue, with 18/40 in offense and 30 and faith, that means, a lot of OFFENSIVE POWER, also 35 endurance and 20 in attunement, that means, a lot of utility, it's OP to have 35 vigor. The point of builds should be balance, and having both high health, high damage and high utility...

Maybe 100 is a better level, taking into account that there are a lot of parameters, but a lot of them are useless for all the builds. A lot of melee builds won't put points into att, int or fth (or put a bit only), and a lot of them not into luck (unless bleed build), mages wont put into str, dex or luck (usually) etc so... effectivelly talking, there are less parameters

I just see too many stats arround 40 to feel that's balanced

PD: for fightclubs, with password sign, im reading that level doesnt matter and gets adjusted to fair duels.. we need to find specific info about that-

It is. 18/40 for one non-buffable weapon. You have to take into account that this is with the Prisoner's Chain ring, and it is min-maxed to the max.
You also have to take into account people who want to use support spells, hybrid builds, pure Dark/Pyro builds, etc. You can barely make a build at 130 when going Dark/Pyro that is remotely viable in PvP.

You can't just factor Quality builds and call it a day. This is not how the meta works. First you hit the caps of of Vigor, which is 27, and then Endurance which is 40. Then put the rest of the points in one main stat. Those builds are so gimped compared to Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Dark Souls II.

I vote for 120, because you can barely make a build that isn't pure melee. Making it 100 is a screw up for many people who plan on leveling INT, FTH or both. They need minimum 40/40 in those stats to even do some damage, because that's how scaling in this game works. Then hit the soft caps on VIG and END, then level a bit of STR or DEX to get at least one melee weapon that isn't a starting class weapon with elemental upgrade, then level ATT which takes A LOT of points to level to get some slots and Focus Points. You can't make that without going to 120 or above. Anything below and you are a joke in PvP compared to pure melee. It isn't that easy as it sounds.

I could shave 10 points in VIG on that build, that still leaves me at 110 without even leveling VIT for equip load. That is, with two support spells at max which are situational and without using a shield, just a weapon and a talisman.

Why do you NEED to reach the 27 cap of vigor?
Why do you need to reach the 40 cap in endurance?
Why do you need to reach caps?

It's all about builds. With low level, you do sacrifices. If you want a full offensive mage build, then you will have to sacrifice vigor (that's why high mages are usually with clothes and are physically weak), or low endurance (they are not trained).

Why do you need a lot of health? If you take a lot of stamina or damage output or FP, you have to sacrifice health and die in some hits. Not all builds have to be tanky. If all builds can be tanky and still maximize damage output, stamina or fp, then it's wrong

Because this is how meta is decided. By capping the vital stats first, then using the leftover points to tweak your build by focusing on one main stat and one support stat. If you are short on points, you may reduce them from other stats. 27 of Vigor is 1000 HP, unless you plan on dying in two hits this is mandatory. In fact, you can always combo two hits. Anything less is gimping yourself by having no advantage whatsoever over melee builds.

I have never sacrified vital stats on any of my builds in DeS, DaS and DaSII, and no one should unless they really want more slots of ATT or Focus Points.

That's like asking why is the DaS meta SL 120-125. Because people didn't want to sacrifice everything to gain something. DaS meta could have worked at SL 100, like it was when it was first released. But people wanted to fast roll with poise and have support spells when the things they liked were nerfed, so the SL was bumped by 20 points, and then 25 points.

The same thing applied to Dark Souls II. People decided the meta before the game has even been released. They said SL 150 was the perfect meta because of additional stats, but they were wrong. It was SL 175 that was the perfect meta. They didn't factor in the hybrid builds, they didn't factor in the split damage scaling and the faster leveling.

Even by having 40 VIG, you will not be tanky. You will die in a 4 hits by a buffed Estoc. So what is the point of having less, or rather, what is the point of having less than 27 at all? People in DaS never sacrified their health. All builds used either 40 or 50 vitality. It was the main stat that was capped first.

In this game, armor gives a flat % of damage reduction and another % depending on the armor type. Having ANY armor is crucial, but it doesn't matter what kind of armor. Poise is almost useless, and if it works it only works during hyperarmor mode.

So yes, in the end everyone will have similar HP, similar Stamina and Fast Roll speed. Their other stats will decide what kind of playstyle they have. It doesn't matter if you wear robes or not.

If that is wrong, then we were doing it wrong for 7 years straight now.

One more thing. I don't mind if people cap themsevels at SL 100, i will be doing the same until the proper meta is decided. But i vote for 120, fair and straight. Making a melee build is only so easy, making anything else is less so.

Seems to me like more playing is required, while I agree that a lower sl meta is better, it obviously can't be so low that it limits build options in a detrimental way. On the other hand it shouldn't be too high either, I feel that builds should be limited in some manner and not be good at more than a couple things. The problem with high sl meta is that it sucks for focused builds, but too low makes anything else useless.
I'm pretty sure I'm merely stating the obvious, I'm pretty tired atm but wanted to add my two cents.

The meta needs to be at sl 125 or higher than that because of the vit stat

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

The meta needs to be at sl 125 or higher than that because of the vit stat

I'll just see how much it will take me for 40 vig, 40 end, 40 strength and enough vit to fast roll with my stuff.

Originally posted by Mr. Bones:

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

The meta needs to be at sl 125 or higher than that because of the vit stat

I'll just see how much it will take me for 40 vig, 40 end, 40 strength and enough vit to fast roll with my stuff.

Too bad they nerfed havel's ring and fap ring to hell >:(

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

Originally posted by Mr. Bones:

I'll just see how much it will take me for 40 vig, 40 end, 40 strength and enough vit to fast roll with my stuff.

Too bad they nerfed havel's ring and fap ring to hell >:(

They did.
But they would of been OP with -70% Weight to fast roll if not nerfed.
We don't want the return of the ninja-flipping Havels.

Originally posted by Mr. Bones:

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

Too bad they nerfed havel's ring and fap ring to hell >:(

They did.
But they would of been OP with -70% Weight to fast roll if not nerfed.
We don't want the return of the ninja-flipping Havel's.

-30% is the equip weight required to fastroll not -70%
18% is too much of a nerf from 50%

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

Originally posted by Mr. Bones:

They did.
But they would of been OP with -70% Weight to fast roll if not nerfed.
We don't want the return of the ninja-flipping Havel's.

-30% is the equip weight required to fastroll not -70%
18% is too much of a nerf from 50%

Wait... So that's actually mid roll?
Is fast roll Bloodborne mode or something?

Originally posted by Mr. Bones:

Originally posted by Dame Arstor:

-30% is the equip weight required to fastroll not -70%
18% is too much of a nerf from 50%

Wait... So that's actually mid roll?
Is fast roll Bloodborne mode or something?

https://youtu.be/lm4IOCkc5n0
Slightly faster animation and probably a bit more i frame