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Dear; people who were against paid mods
First of all, I want to say that I do understand the concerns that some people have regarding how paid mods on Steam could negatively affect the modding community. But that's all there's to it - concerns, nothing more, since we haven't even allowed to see the supposedly negative effects of it before it got mass-boycotted. I'm gonna keep this really short.

I guess most of us who have dwelved deep enough into the realm of game modding knows that there are already paid mods out there, take FSX's amazing paid mods for example, with some modders even collaborating with real airlines or airplane manufacturers to make their mods as realistic as possible, licensed even. But what they do - making paid mods and earn a living out of it, is a pretty isolated concept.

Paid mods on Steam could've help popularizing this and make it less taboo, streamline the process, and help many aspiring content creators out there who otherwise have little to no avenue and the necessary exposure, to create great stuff and get something in return that they deserve for their creations.

It can be a whole new industry - one that anyone can get into no matter what their background or level of education are.

I assume most of us gamers have had a thought about making a living out of what we love - video games. Either by simply playing them, making unofficial contents such as guides and walkthroughs, working for a game company, or by creating our own games. The rise of the attention economy in the past decade along with how the internet became much more accessible have made it possible for many gamers to earn a living out of their creations from ads money (YouTube, gaming websites and forums with ads).

But what about the 3D modelers, scripters, coders, texturers, riggers, whose creations aren't designed to gather views or website visitors for ad money? Can you imagine making a really good mod that takes a long time to make, have 10,000 people visit your website and download it, and only make $10 from ad money? Do you, as a fellow gamer who loves enjoying good contents really say it's worth their time?

Steam could've created a whole new ecosystem much like what the Second Life market is doing ("creator -> user" market which is much more accessible for everyone compared to a "creator -> game company -> user" market) sure Linden Lab still take a tiny cut from each sale, like how Steam would take a cut from each paid mods sale too if it got realized, but the point is, anyone can make anything they want and earn something decent in return if enough people want it and think that it's worth it.

It would help in making a lot of us who aren't working for a game company but like creating things for video games that we love to make a living out of it, or at least get a well-deserved something in return. If anything, the clearer and more guaranteed incentives from such an ecosystem would make the modding community greater than ever.

I hope you consider what I just said the next time Steam / Valve pitches paid mods, for the good of all of us.

-

Edit: Since this thread has gotten so many replies, I'm gonna sum up some arguments and their counter arguments from what others have posted here for those of you who don't feel like reading through all the replies.


"Paid mods is against the spirit of modding!"

- Nonsense, people who made well-made, non-copyright-infringing paid mods have the rights to monetize and deserve to be incentivized for their works if they wish to, and many paid mods already exist for some games but they are relatively obscure. A lot of people who made these kind of mods would love if they can have a mainstream distribution platform to sell their mods on.

"Paid mods on Steam is Valve cash grab!"

- Valve / game devs also deserve their share of the paid mods money since they would be the one hosting the ecosystem and allowing it to be sustained. Whether or not their share of the pie is too much or not is another issue, this doesn't mean paid mods is bad and shouldn't be realized.

"People will start selling crap mods for tons of money!"

- This is very counterintuitive to how marketplace economic works. People would generally sell things for what others might want to pay for it. For example, it's more sensible to sell an original armor set mods for 10 cents and have 10 thousand people buying it rather than selling it for 5 dollars and have no one buying it.

"What about possible copyright infringement issues?"

- There are many ways to technically and legally tackle this as many have posted and Valve most likely knows how to, since it's possible to be done in many existing platforms that relies on user-generated contents (ex: YouTube, SL Marketplace, even Valve's own Steam virtual game distribution system is technically a user-generated market since Valve doesn't make most of the games they are selling)

"What if people starts selling mods that's buggy or won't work?"

- First of all, paid mods generally have much better quality and support compared to free mods because the mods developers would have a clear incentive for their works and for supporting them. Secondly, there would most likely be a rating system in place that separates bad mods and developers from the good ones. Mods developers can also release a free "demo" version of their mods so people can test whether or not it works. If felt necessary, a free demo can also be made mandatory even.
Last edited by Luca the dry humored girlfriend; 20 Apr, 2017 @ 3:52pm
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Showing 1-15 of 501 comments
Jasperline 15 Apr, 2017 @ 7:58pm 
I see your point and can agree on quite a bit, but what happened to just making mods because you loved the game and wanted to extend it and share your love and passion with others? Why is money a factor now when it wasn't as much not too long ago?

-For the record, I am fine with paid mods if it's done right.

(Please, before you continue QUOTING me, read that I've changed my opinion. No need to keep beating me with a dead horse :P)
Last edited by Jasperline; 17 Apr, 2017 @ 9:06am
HLCinSC 15 Apr, 2017 @ 8:33pm 
Originally posted by Jasperline:
I see your point and can agree on quite a bit, but what happened to just making mods because you loved the game and wanted to extend it and share your love and passion with others? Why is money a factor now when it wasn't as much not too long ago?

-For the record, I am fine with paid mods if it's done right.
I had an old roomate in undergrad that used to make mods. I'm sure he would of loved to been able to cut back hours of his real part time job and instead spend that time improving/expanding his mods without harming his income.
tmwfte 15 Apr, 2017 @ 8:50pm 
I don't have an issue with well-regulated, well-maintained, and well-paid paid mods. They're essentially third-party DLC and I don't have any issue when they're done in other ways: for instance, I've no problem with the various DLC for Dovetail's Train Sim, of which a lot of it is done by the community. I don't even really have a problem with it for the endless microtransactions in paid DLC for TF2, DOTA2, CSGO, etc. I don't have a problem with community artists and developers getting paid for their work. I often won't buy it, but I don't have a problem with them selling it.

What I do have a problem with is what occurred when Valve first tried to introduce it and what happened again when they brought it back for map passes for DOTA 2: stolen assets. It was occurring when paid mods went live for Skyrim and happened again when the DOTA 2 passes went into effect. It occurs because these programs aren't regulated and have no oversight. They're only brought to light when the rest of the community realises that, "Hey, that feathered armour was developed by MORKowbell" or "Those flaming pits with the neat lavalantula spider effect were done by the Gutenbergenator, who's this chump trying to sell it as his?"

If publishers get their act together and can regulate it properly as third-party DLC, I think they should go for it. But the multiple times Valve have tried it here have shown that a free-for-all market doesn't work.
Insanity Claus 15 Apr, 2017 @ 8:59pm 
Originally posted by Jasperline:
what happened to just making mods because you loved the game and wanted to extend it and share your love and passion with others? Why is money a factor now when it wasn't as much not too long ago?

-For the record, I am fine with paid mods if it's done right.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. A person's passion and motivation to profit from their work are not a zero sum game.

Money is a factor because companies see how well made mods extend their products in both long-tail sales and in positive word-of-mouth. With this, they want to be able to extend the ability for people to freelance work. Also because a LOT of people have projects that they love to do; if they can get paid for it, then it motivates them to work on it more.

NPR's On Point had a piece about how common the "side hustle" is becoming.

Everybody has to hustle in this economy. For many Millennials, the hustle that matters - that gets the love, that stokes the dreams, that gets the last bills paid - is the “side hustle.” The side hustle is the extra job, the after-hours passion, the freelance gig after work that brings in a few more bucks and – if you’re lucky – holds out the promise of a bigger, better, more exciting career ahead. It’s a second job, and maybe more than that. This hour On Point, Millenials and the “side hustle” economy.

http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2017/04/06/side-hustle-gig-economy

When you think about things like Patreon and GoFundMe and even Paypal, this wasn't around when people were making Quake mods. If they could have gotten paid, I'm sure some would have loved to. Most did mods to pad out their portfolios and for fun. Modding is a great way to gain entry into professional game development and is how a lot of today's prominent developers got started.

The big problem with Bethesda was that paid mods were not going to be curated. There needs to be some kind of verification scheme, mainly with longtime and trusted modders getting admission first. IMO, the ability to sell mods on Steam should be a privilege that you earn the right to do, not a right given to any and every user.
Jasperline 15 Apr, 2017 @ 9:11pm 
I see it from that point of view now. I admit I am not a mod user much, was not something I got into as much as I know others (Skyrim, Fo4, ect). Thank you for taking the time to give me some education on the situation. Was something I didn't think of before. I admit my thoughts were a bit shallow in the situation, but thank you (and the OP) for giving me something new to think about :)
Last edited by Jasperline; 15 Apr, 2017 @ 9:12pm
Insanity Claus 15 Apr, 2017 @ 9:14pm 
Originally posted by tmwfte:
It occurs because these programs aren't regulated and have no oversight. They're only brought to light when the rest of the community realises that, "Hey, that feathered armour was developed by MORKowbell" or "Those flaming pits with the neat lavalantula spider effect were done by the Gutenbergenator, who's this chump trying to sell it as his?"

If publishers get their act together and can regulate it properly as third-party DLC, I think they should go for it. But the multiple times Valve have tried it here have shown that a free-for-all market doesn't work.
I think Valve's stuff is fairly well regulated. You can't just go around and have anyone sell stuff, for the most part. Yeah, there's going to be screwups, but how many have their really been, in relation to the volume of content released?

There's always going to be people who try to run scams. Anywhere where money can be made, there will be scams. That doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's a bit difficult for any one team to be able to know and recognize any and all assets for a game. Because of the hivemind of the internet, though, there's always some fan that will be able to spot when something has been ripped off.

While it kind of sucks to say that the only truly reliable way to verify original content is to crowdsource the verification process, that really is the only way to reliably do it when it pertains to things like game assets.
Last edited by Insanity Claus; 15 Apr, 2017 @ 9:14pm
tmwfte 15 Apr, 2017 @ 9:35pm 
Originally posted by BS LeavingLasVegas:
I think Valve's stuff is fairly well regulated. You can't just go around and have anyone sell stuff, for the most part. Yeah, there's going to be screwups, but how many have their really been, in relation to the volume of content released?

The very first one--Very first--Custom Game Pass had stolen assets. It wasn't regulated at all.

http://steamed.kotaku.com/creator-of-dota-2s-first-paid-custom-game-apologizes-fo-1766279745

One of four managed to have stolen content, which essentially killed the program.
Teksura 15 Apr, 2017 @ 11:16pm 
The top 3 very real concerns people had with paid mods were (in no particular order):

* Stolen assets
* Buggy or broken mods
* Mods that worked fine but then break on a game update and never get fixed

The fact that a refund policy even exists now could help to some degree, allowing people to refund mods that turn out to be horridly broken out the gate. All 3 of these are pretty serious issues, and the first one there could even get Valve in legal hot water if they don't do enough to crack down on it. There would need to be a solid solution to all 3 of these issues for the system to exist.
Originally posted by tmwfte:
What I do have a problem with is what occurred when Valve first tried to introduce it and what happened again when they brought it back for map passes for DOTA 2: stolen assets. It was occurring when paid mods went live for Skyrim and happened again when the DOTA 2 passes went into effect. It occurs because these programs aren't regulated and have no oversight. They're only brought to light when the rest of the community realises that, "Hey, that feathered armour was developed by MORKowbell" or "Those flaming pits with the neat lavalantula spider effect were done by the Gutenbergenator, who's this chump trying to sell it as his?"

If publishers get their act together and can regulate it properly as third-party DLC, I think they should go for it. But the multiple times Valve have tried it here have shown that a free-for-all market doesn't work.

I think such an issue can be taken care of by allowing people to flag items for copyright infringement, or the creator or copyright owner of said item to file a DMCA. I also think Steam / Valve should make it clear in the TOS that only mods that contains things which you rightfully own intelectually can be sold for cash, that's how it's done in SL, at least. (plus other suggestions others have posted in this thread)

A free-for-all market could work with proper management, for example, I read that 60 million USD was cashed out by SL users in 2015 alone, and I believe a large portion of it came from people selling contents they created. Imagine the market value for such an ecosystem hosted by Steam, a platform with 125 times the amount of active users compared to SL (125 million vs 1 million).

But yeah, what happened was unfortunate and I really do hope they get re-implemented in the future with proper management.

Originally posted by Jasperline:
but thank you (and the OP) for giving me something new to think about :)

Np :)

Originally posted by Teksura:
The top 3 very real concerns people had with paid mods were (in no particular order):

* Stolen assets
* Buggy or broken mods
* Mods that worked fine but then break on a game update and never get fixed

The fact that a refund policy even exists now could help to some degree, allowing people to refund mods that turn out to be horridly broken out the gate. All 3 of these are pretty serious issues, and the first one there could even get Valve in legal hot water if they don't do enough to crack down on it. There would need to be a solid solution to all 3 of these issues for the system to exist.

I wrote above on how the first issue could possibly be addressed, as for the other two;

* Buggy or broken mods

I think an organic development of such an ecosystem coupled with a decent community rating system can help with this. For example, I don't think anyone would rush out to buy something expensive that's not really well-presented and was made by someone who's relatively unknown, and creators who decides to sell their mods for quite a high price can give out free "demos" for people to try whether or not the mod works on their end. (for example, people selling original armor mods can put watermarked textures with floating text on the armors' demo, and if the mod works and the user likes it, they can then proceed to buy it)

* Mods that worked fine but then break on a game update and never get fixed

That's the kind of acceptable risk that a lot of people should be familiar with I think. It's the same story with many early access games and mods out there, people evaluate these things based on how they are presented by the creators and then they decide whether or not these things worth the price and risk.

Maybe if something breaks after a certain update, users can flag or comment on it as "not compatible after x update" and whether or not the creator would fix it is part of the risk, both for the buyer and the creator as it's their reputation that's at stake.
Last edited by Luca the dry humored girlfriend; 15 Apr, 2017 @ 11:53pm
Again. I don't really give a ♥♥♥♥ about Steam selling mods. What I give a ♥♥♥♥ about is my own mods that I made mysteriously showing up and being sold on the service that Valve is incapable of moderating.
tmwfte 15 Apr, 2017 @ 11:50pm 
Originally posted by Luca:
I think such an issue can be taken care of by allowing people to flag items for copyright infringement, or the creator or copyright owner of said item to file a DMCA. I also think Steam / Valve should make it clear in the TOS that only mods that contains things which you rightfully own intelectually can be sold for cash, that's how it's done in SL, at least. (plus other suggestions others have posted in this thread)

Both of which were there for both previous attempts on Steam, didn't stop people from using stolen assets.
Originally posted by tmwfte:
Originally posted by Luca:
I think such an issue can be taken care of by allowing people to flag items for copyright infringement, or the creator or copyright owner of said item to file a DMCA. I also think Steam / Valve should make it clear in the TOS that only mods that contains things which you rightfully own intelectually can be sold for cash, that's how it's done in SL, at least. (plus other suggestions others have posted in this thread)

Both of which were there for both previous attempts on Steam, didn't stop people from using stolen assets.

I'm sure there are ways to (technically and legally) combat that.

Take YouTube for example, there are people uploading videos that infringes people's copyright in a way or another, but they have ways to combat that. Same thing with the platform I used as an example in my earlier posts (or any other company out there that relies on user-submitted contents for that matter), they have ways to combat this kind of thing to make sure it won't bring the company down.
Last edited by Luca the dry humored girlfriend; 16 Apr, 2017 @ 12:00am
tmwfte 16 Apr, 2017 @ 12:00am 
Originally posted by Luca:
That shouldn't stop paid mods to be realized. I'm sure there are ways to (technically and legally) combat this.

Better regulation. Which Valve have made clear that they don't want/are not capable of providing through scuppering both programs.
Originally posted by tmwfte:
Originally posted by Luca:
That shouldn't stop paid mods to be realized. I'm sure there are ways to (technically and legally) combat this.

Better regulation. Which Valve have made clear that they don't want/are not capable of providing through scuppering both programs.

I think what made them scrap the program was mostly the community backlash, Valve (or Gabe Newell) are pretty vocal in their opinion regarding paid mods.

http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-modders-absolutely-need-to-be-paid/

That's a new article from February this year, they showed a pretty strong interest in bringing paid mods back, so I think they are ready to provide the necessary manpower and resource to better regulate it.
Last edited by Luca the dry humored girlfriend; 16 Apr, 2017 @ 12:06am
tmwfte 16 Apr, 2017 @ 12:06am 
Originally posted by Luca:
I think what made them scrap the program was mostly the community backlash, Valve (or Gabe Newell) are pretty vocal in their opinion regarding paid mods.

http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-modders-absolutely-need-to-be-paid/

There wasn't as huge a community backlash with the Custom Game Passes as there was with the Bethesda paid mods. When the pass with stolen assets appeared, they basically stopped the programme from progressing beyond the initial offerings.
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Date Posted: 15 Apr, 2017 @ 4:37pm
Posts: 501