Hi David, loved the game, will make a small review about it :) i would like to keep on hearing about you and your progress.

I like the ideas for Himno 2, one question will it have the same movement as Himno 1?

Good luck!

I'll be honest with you, I have no love for those ideas for Himno 2. In my eyes, it will probably be "just another one of those games".

What drew my attention to Himno was mostly the peaceful nature of it. And I think that's what sets it apart from other games, mainly rogue-likes.

Overall, I'd say it was a great idea that translated in an "okay" experience. It just doesn't feel like a game to me.
I felt there were many elements in the game that did nothing for it because you chose so. Like, there are "light runes" (3 per level -- 1 starting, 1 randomly place, 1 close to the exit), there are "wisps", but collecting them is very unrewarding. They don't affect the game in any way apart from graphically having them fly around you.
I quickly got bored of exploring, since leveling up and collecting stuff didn't change my experience in any way. Do you know those runner games? I felt like collecting stuff could provide you with cool power-ups that would make the exploration/navigation more fun and varied, like double jump, double dash, flying for a few seconds, more exp gems showing up. Maybe some wisps could point to the exit, or generate more light, or display a minimap? Maybe they could unlock bonus areas in-between districts? Just ideas.
Since wisps seem pointless, leveling up also felt pointless. I wish I could maybe improve basic skills as I level up, like jumping higher, dashing longer...
Two other things that would make me want to play longer:
- Randomly generated missions. Like "go through X districts", "reach district X", "reach exp level X", "collect X wisps", "collect a specific wisp", "collect runes", "collect all runes in X districts", and so on. You wouldn't even need a reward for those missions, but they set a goal, and goals are rewarding in themselves when it comes to games.
- But in case you DO want to apply rewards for those missions (and/or at the end of the run -- and by the way, it would've been nice to have statistics for just the run when you die), players could maybe get some sort of currency, so players can maybe buy new skins/hats for the hero, soundtracks to the pool that can be played when you're exploring the world, maybe some artwork, too, idk.
Also, instead of enemies, I'd rather see traps. Maybe even some of those "bonus areas" I meant could be like some sort of gauntlet with nice rewards at the end.

I know it's EXTREMELY unlikely that any of the things I've suggested will be of interest to you, considering your plans for your game, but you never know...

I just think that would still keep the essence of "take a breath and relax", but it would keep players engaged longer. Combat, enemies, survival, and crafting seem to deviate from that path, I think.

Postat inițial de Lepaco:

Hi David, loved the game, will make a small review about it :) i would like to keep on hearing about you and your progress.

I like the ideas for Himno 2, one question will it have the same movement as Himno 1?

Good luck!

Thank you so much! Yes, at the moment I like how it feels. If you have a problem or suggestion, you can tell me c:

I think you should avoid combat completely and expand on making a pure exploration game. Instead of combat focus on new environment, unlocking new mobility moves, and maybe occasional unique locations with narrative.

The game is cool because it has no combat. Instead, maybe you can throw a sword and use it as a platform, and then it will return to you.

That being said, if you want to make money avoid everything that I said XD. Personally I would prefer an Original game instead of another decent roguelite.

Himno could even work as it if you would put some random unique events that would be worth exploring for, maybe they would unlock skins and achievements. Find a lost city in randomly made levels ect.

Postat inițial de MakoSipper:

I'll be honest with you, I have no love for those ideas for Himno 2. In my eyes, it will probably be "just another one of those games".

What drew my attention to Himno was mostly the peaceful nature of it. And I think that's what sets it apart from other games, mainly rogue-likes.

Overall, I'd say it was a great idea that translated in an "okay" experience. It just doesn't feel like a game to me.
I felt there were many elements in the game that did nothing for it because you chose so. Like, there are "light runes" (3 per level -- 1 starting, 1 randomly place, 1 close to the exit), there are "wisps", but collecting them is very unrewarding. They don't affect the game in any way apart from graphically having them fly around you.
I quickly got bored of exploring, since leveling up and collecting stuff didn't change my experience in any way. Do you know those runner games? I felt like collecting stuff could provide you with cool power-ups that would make the exploration/navigation more fun and varied, like double jump, double dash, flying for a few seconds, more exp gems showing up. Maybe some wisps could point to the exit, or generate more light, or display a minimap? Maybe they could unlock bonus areas in-between districts? Just ideas.
Since wisps seem pointless, leveling up also felt pointless. I wish I could maybe improve basic skills as I level up, like jumping higher, dashing longer...
Two other things that would make me want to play longer:
- Randomly generated missions. Like "go through X districts", "reach district X", "reach exp level X", "collect X wisps", "collect a specific wisp", "collect runes", "collect all runes in X districts", and so on. You wouldn't even need a reward for those missions, but they set a goal, and goals are rewarding in themselves when it comes to games.
- But in case you DO want to apply rewards for those missions (and/or at the end of the run -- and by the way, it would've been nice to have statistics for just the run when you die), players could maybe get some sort of currency, so players can maybe buy new skins/hats for the hero, soundtracks to the pool that can be played when you're exploring the world, maybe some artwork, too, idk.
Also, instead of enemies, I'd rather see traps. Maybe even some of those "bonus areas" I meant could be like some sort of gauntlet with nice rewards at the end.

I know it's EXTREMELY unlikely that any of the things I've suggested will be of interest to you, considering your plans for your game, but you never know...

I just think that would still keep the essence of "take a breath and relax", but it would keep players engaged longer. Combat, enemies, survival, and crafting seem to deviate from that path, I think.

Hey MakoSipper, thanks for your comment!

I really love many of these ideas indeed. What am thinking about is to keep Himno as the relaxing and chill game it is and update it with many of these ideas for free. When I say "Himno 2", I don't mean a direct sequel to Himno, but another game in this world. Even if It has combat, I want it to continue having that essence of peace and loneliness. Complicated but I think I can achieve it.

It won't be "another game of those" because I have proposed myself that all my games have to have something different from the rest of the games even if they belong to a specific genre.

I don't know if I said it all, but if you have any questions just ask me ^^

Thanks
David

Postat inițial de American Beetle:

I think you should avoid combat completely and expand on making a pure exploration game. Instead of combat focus on new environment, unlocking new mobility moves, and maybe occasional unique locations with narrative.

The game is cool because it has no combat. Instead, maybe you can throw a sword and use it as a platform, and then it will return to you.

That being said, if you want to make money avoid everything that I said XD. Personally I would prefer an Original game instead of another decent roguelite.

Hello!

When I said Himno 2, I didn't mean to do a direct sequel of Himno. I meant to do another type of game but in the same world. Himno will continue to receive free updates over time, with new content that all of you are telling me that I find super cool. "Himno 2" will be original even belonging to the rogue-like genre, that's for sure!

Thanks
David

I like the idea of Himno 2, bbbbbuuuut I'm with the No-Combat Team. Lets be honest, there are plenty of combat based roguelikes.
Rather than changing the paradigm, it would be awesome if you expand the base concept.
Instead of enemies there may be may dangers in the environment itself, like fragile structures, moving platforms, traps...
NPCs could give you missions or just share with you the lore of the land.
Talking about missions, they may be the classic "Go to some place and bring me X item", "Bring me X quantity of something", "Find X that is hidden in this zone", or why not "Escort me to the exit". There are many posibilities.
For progression purposses movement could be somewhat limited at first, and you could find / buy artifacts that unlock and boost abilities, like higher jumps, air dashes, wall grab, double jump, glide, or utilities like more light radius, disarm traps, mark locations.
These are just some random ideas.

Postat inițial de Xannis Vordam:

I like the idea of Himno 2, bbbbbuuuut I'm with the No-Combat Team. Lets be honest, there are plenty of combat based roguelikes.
Rather than changing the paradigm, it would be awesome if you expand the base concept.
Instead of enemies there may be may dangers in the environment itself, like fragile structures, moving platforms, traps...
NPCs could give you missions or just share with you the lore of the land.
Talking about missions, they may be the classic "Go to some place and bring me X item", "Bring me X quantity of something", "Find X that is hidden in this zone", or why not "Escort me to the exit". There are many posibilities.
For progression purposses movement could be somewhat limited at first, and you could find / buy artifacts that unlock and boost abilities, like higher jumps, air dashes, wall grab, double jump, glide, or utilities like more light radius, disarm traps, mark locations.
These are just some random ideas.

So really really cool ideas! Maybe in the end I do a sequel without combat or anything like that. I love the idea of a roguelike game with these aesthetics tho. Maybe for Himno 3? hahhah (?)

TL;DR The essence of Himno is a "feeling of peace and loneliness". It can be expressed through combat, too. The game's core gameplay loop naturally supports combat. A potential Himno 2 will not be related to Himno 1, this title will continue to exist and receive updates. Therefore, the development of Himno 2 has more positives for us than negatives.

I for one think that adding combat to a Himno 2 wouldn't be a bad thing, provided we keep Himno 1 as the atmospheric, relaxed exploration game. If executed well, it would offer a different take on the same core idea of "an essence of peace and loneliness" by the dev's words.

The main concern seems to be that a more combat-oriented Himno would devolve into just another rogue-like, but I think that's misunderstanding the game's strengths. It's not fun because there is no combat. It's fun because it has a very robust movement system, stylish visuals and a very engaging gameplay loop. Those elements don't contradict combat systems.

It's very similar toCrossCode and its use of plants. As Game Soup puts it, "The plant destruction mechanic is a great rapid-fire compliment to the slow burn of opening treasure boxes and engaging in combat." In other words, getting better at combat and solving puzzles are long- to mid-term goals, which require energy and time investment, whereas plants give instantaneous rewards, so they keep players engaged long enough to complete those slower, harder tasks.

In Himno, there are no destructible plants, but we have yellow gems, which are satisfying to pick up (not unlike CrossCode's plants) and appear randomly in unexplored areas. So, to reach them, we need to use the movement system. But then we get closer to new unexplored areas, which makes it more likely that we'll spot new gems and the cycle continues. A combat system would integrate seamlessly into this by adding a risk/reward factor. Let's say that there's some sort of icon that tells you "There's an enemy here." But it doesn't tell you their type. Now let's say that gems give health, not just XP, you're getting low and you see a pair spawn right behind that enemy. Do you fight them with your limited resources? Depends on how good you are at fighting. Do you just back off, if you'd rather not risk it, or do you try to find a way around if you're confident in your movement? It's an interesting choice. At least, it would be to me.

With that said, it all depends on how the combat system is implemented. A standard hack n slash affair a la Rogue Legacy would be a mistake, I agree. If I was making the game, I'd focus on immersion. Keep the HUD minimal, convey all relevant information organically (ex: instead of a health bar, make the armor deteriorate with every hit). When it comes to combat, I'd give each weapon durability (like in Breath of the Wild). I'd make it so that players can only carry one weapon at a time. The bow could be an exception to this, since it uses health for ammo. Each would have its own specialized moveset, but it would be possible to beat the game entirely unarmed. Although, fighting bare-handed would be a lot more technical than using a weapon (kind of like how Unarmed is balanced in Brawlhalla). While playing Himno, I got the feeling that the main character is a sort of a nomad, or an explorer. That system would reinforce that. He's prepared for very different situations (many weapons), but he can also improvise if he needs to (unarmed, less effective but dependable).

In general, I wouldn't leave any playstyle-defining items, or equipment to RNG. Slay the Spire has some cards, which change the way you see the game. They're not available from the start unless you get lucky, as far as I know, and that's why I'm not playing it. It feels unfair.

The level generation algorithm would probalby need to be tweaked. It's mostly fine, but sometimes it spawns tiles on top of jump pads, or it makes rooms which are closed in from all sides, or puts entrances at weird places. The movement system is very dependable, as I said, so often I see these as challenges, not a bugs, but with enemies, they might cause problems.

A game like that won't offer relaxation, yes, but it could stay true to the spirit of Himno, given careful graphical/musical direction. If pulled off well, it might even enchance the experience with new mechanics. And besides, Himno 1 will continue to receive updates, so we can always go back to it, if we don't like the new project.

PS: I'm biased towards games with deep mechanics/story themes.

Postat inițial de ilikenololis:

TL;DR The essence of Himno is a "feeling of peace and loneliness". It can be expressed through combat, too. The game's core gameplay loop naturally supports combat. A potential Himno 2 will not be related to Himno 1, this title will continue to exist and receive updates. Therefore, the development of Himno 2 has more positives for us than negatives.

I for one think that adding combat to a Himno 2 wouldn't be a bad thing, provided we keep Himno 1 as the atmospheric, relaxed exploration game. If executed well, it would offer a different take on the same core idea of "an essence of peace and loneliness" by the dev's words.

The main concern seems to be that a more combat-oriented Himno would devolve into just another rogue-like, but I think that's misunderstanding the game's strengths. It's not fun because there is no combat. It's fun because it has a very robust movement system, stylish visuals and a very engaging gameplay loop. Those elements don't contradict combat systems.

It's very similar toCrossCode and its use of plants. As Game Soup puts it, "The plant destruction mechanic is a great rapid-fire compliment to the slow burn of opening treasure boxes and engaging in combat." In other words, getting better at combat and solving puzzles are long- to mid-term goals, which require energy and time investment, whereas plants give instantaneous rewards, so they keep players engaged long enough to complete those slower, harder tasks.

In Himno, there are no destructible plants, but we have yellow gems, which are satisfying to pick up (not unlike CrossCode's plants) and appear randomly in unexplored areas. So, to reach them, we need to use the movement system. But then we get closer to new unexplored areas, which makes it more likely that we'll spot new gems and the cycle continues. A combat system would integrate seamlessly into this by adding a risk/reward factor. Let's say that there's some sort of icon that tells you "There's an enemy here." But it doesn't tell you their type. Now let's say that gems give helth, not just XP, you're getting low and you see a pair spawn right behind that enemy. Do you fight them with your limited resources? Depends on how good you are at fighting. Do you just back off, if you'd rather not risk it, or do you try to find a way around if you're confident in your movement? It's an interesting choice. At least, it would be to me.

With that said, it all depends on how the combat system is implemented. A standard hack n slash affair a la Rogue Legacy would be a mistake, I agree. If I was making the game, I'd focus on immersion. Keep the HUD minimal, convey all relevant information organically (ex: instead of a health bar, make the armor deteriorate with every hit). When it comes to combat, I'd give each weapon durability (like in Breath of the Wild). I'd make it so that players can only carry one weapon at a time. The bow could be an exception to this, since it uses health for ammo. Each would have its own specialized moveset, but it would be possible to beat the game entirely unarmed. Although, fighting bare-handed would be a lot more technical than using a weapon (kind of like how Unarmed is balanced in Brawlhalla). While playing Himno, I got the feeling that the main character is a sort of a nomad, or an explorer. That system would reinforce that. He's prepared for very different situations (many weapons), but he can also improvise if he needs to (unarmed, less effective but dependable). Now, I don't know about you but I've yet to see a technical rogue-like with a focus on immersion.

In general, I wouldn't leave any playstyle-defining items, or equipment to RNG. Slay the Spire has some cards, which change the way you see the game. They're not available from the start unless you get lucky, as far as I know, and that's why I'm not playing it. It feels unfair.

The level generation algorithm would probalby need to be tweaked. It's mostly fine, but sometimes it spawns tiles on top of jump pads, or it makes rooms which are closed in from all sides, or puts entrances at weird places. The movement system is very dependable, as I said, so often I see these as challenges, not a bugs, but with enemies, they might cause problems.

A game like that won't offer relaxation, yes, but it could stay true to the spirit of Himno with the careful graphical/musical direction. If pulled off well, it might even enchance the experience with new mechanics. And besides, Himno 1 will continue to receive updates, so we can always go back to it, if we don't like the new project.

PS: I'm biased towards games with deep mechanics/story themes.

In the prototype that I have made, many things that you say are already there. What's a bit wrong is the HUD but it's just a test. I am thinking on crafting the items that you want to define your play-style.

Himno has a story to tell. It's a silent one, so there won't be any text telling the story.

Thanks for your coment, much appreciated!
David

1) I'd recommend to let Himno stay as it is right now.
A good bunch of people, including myself, really dislike it, if a game get's more achievements added later on. It turns a good experience into "am I really forced to play this again, now?"
Why is this relevant? Because if you add a bunch more features, fitting achievements would be awesome.
So I'd say take all the suggestions from this thread, and make a second title with it, which is better in every way.

2) I'm part of the no combat team. I really liked the idea of a completely peaceful experience and there's already a bunch of recommendations on how to expand on it.
So, if you release another "Himno" title under that exact name, please keep it as peaceful as the first, because that's the strength of the "franchise".

3) That being said, an rogue-like with the visuals and base concept of Himno would be awesome as well.
Now I'm really getting greedy, but why does it have to be one or the other? Why not 2 games? One, which truly shows the potential of a peaceful dungeon explorer, and another which is more suited for the common audience? Though I'd kinda rename the combat featuring one into something else.

4) Also, if you release a sequel with a lot of improvements, put a price on it.
Big thumbs up for giving us a free game, but some 3 euro/dollar for an refined indie game are absolutely fine and I'd be happy to support you!
And because uninstalling a "free" game effectively removes it from my library, which is annyoing ^^". Not to mention, that free games don't count towards my officially perfected games, either.

Postat inițial de Brachragon:

1) I'd recommend to let Himno stay as it is right now.
A good bunch of people, including myself, really dislike it, if a game get's more achievements added later on. It turns a good experience into "am I really forced to play this again, now?"
Why is this relevant? Because if you add a bunch more features, fitting achievements would be awesome.
So I'd say take all the suggestions from this thread, and make a second title with it, which is better in every way.

2) I'm part of the no combat team. I really liked the idea of a completely peaceful experience and there's already a bunch of recommendations on how to expand on it.
So, if you release another "Himno" title under that exact name, please keep it as peaceful as the first, because that's the strength of the "franchise".

3) That being said, an rogue-like with the visuals and base concept of Himno would be awesome as well.
Now I'm really getting greedy, but why does it have to be one or the other? Why not 2 games? One, which truly shows the potential of a peaceful dungeon explorer, and another which is more suited for the common audience?

4) Also, if you release a sequel with a lot of improvements, put a price on it.
Big thumbs up for giving us a free game, but some 3 euro/dollar for an refined indie game are absolutely fine and I'd be happy to support you!
And because uninstalling a "free" game effectively removes it from my library, which is annyoing ^^". Not to mention, that free games don't count towards my officially perfected games, either.

Thanks a lot for your support, I really appreciate it.

Thanks what i thought, I really want to implement all of your ideas in Himno, I will definitely make a sequel with all these new mechanics and keep it peaceful. I also want to do a roguelike in this world that has that essence of "feeling of peace and loneliness" feel, I think it can be an incredible combination. The thing is which to do first hahaha. Sorry I didn't know that, I just wanted to share this project with the world because I like it a lot and it served me in my most difficult times.

David

Postat inițial de David Moralejo Sánchez:

Sorry I didn't know that, I just wanted to share this project [...]

Are you referring to the following quote?

Postat inițial de Brachragon:

And because uninstalling a "free" game effectively removes it from my library, which is annyoing ^^". Not to mention, that free games don't count towards my officially perfected games, either.

Don't worry, pal. Keeping ~100 MB installed is absolutely no problem ^^
Game's worth it :D

Postat inițial de Brachragon:

Postat inițial de David Moralejo Sánchez:

Sorry I didn't know that, I just wanted to share this project [...]

Are you referring to the following quote?

Postat inițial de Brachragon:

And because uninstalling a "free" game effectively removes it from my library, which is annyoing ^^". Not to mention, that free games don't count towards my officially perfected games, either.

Don't worry, pal. Keeping ~100 MB installed is absolutely no problem ^^
Game's worth it :D

Yeah hahah ^^