Songs of Conquest

Songs of Conquest

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Angus_Burger 12 Jul @ 11:41am
5
3
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Frustrating Design Decisions
I've played the game for a couple weeks while staying with a friend, and wanted to gather my thoughts on things that I feel are holding the game back. I can sometimes beat the Deadly AI 1v1 (and always beat anything below that level), did hotseat with him several times, and have watched several PVP games on youtube, so I won't pretend I'm a master at the game but I feel I understand the mechanics well enough. I should also add I've played HoMM3 since I was a kid.

1. NEVER STOP MOVING: This game has a very high level of movement compared with vision. Wielders generally have only 7-8 vision to start, and 12-13 movement. However, for some incredibly bizarre reason, the deadly ai has an extra 4 to both. As well, the ai is certain to find at least +2 movement boots, dirt/roads increase movement by 25/50%, and many map items increase movement by 2-5 points.

Functionally this means that the ai is FAST. They often will kill the border mobs, kill your scout wielder, and then continue on to kill your main wielder before you can even react because they're functionally moving 35+ points per turn. The fog of war makes this a much worse problem because unlike in HOMM3, you can't just scout ahead and know that you won't be surprised; unless you have a weilder sitting on the border you're screwed (and of course weilders are much more expensive and necessary than HoMM3 where you can hire a throwaway hero for 2500 gold and keep his troops). Even if the ai juuuust misses your main wielder, you can't possibly get away because, again, the ai has a very stupid movement bonus and will go straight for them next turn.

Solution: The game needs to find a better way to balance vision vs movement. Given the alpha-strike nature of the game (which I'll talk about next), there is zero reason the ai should get to zoom around the map so much faster. Removing this bonus isn't good enough though; there need to be far better supports for vision in the game so that you aren't just having wielders bumbling into each other. I hate that the developers added a fog-of-war feature (which HoMM3 didn't have) without thinking of the implications of it. It isn't the least bit realistic for what it's worth either; historical armies didn't just bumble into each other!

2. ONE FIGHT AND IT'S OVER: I will admit that Heroes 3 has this problem as well, but it's bizarre that a game released 20 years later has it MUCH MUCH WORSE!

Essentially, 95% of the time once your main wielder fights the enemy, the winner of that fight wins the game. Even if the fight happens in your home base, there is no recovery. A few reasons why:

a. You lose ALL your artifacts. I have no idea what the developer was thinking in making that happen. Heroes 3 lets you retreat at any time and keep your artifacts, but in SoC once you lose you forfeit all your equipment and thus make the enemy hero even stronger.

b. Buying your hero back is very expensive. I understand you can wait several turns, but compares to HoMM3 the cost for a high level hero is super high; several thousand gold and rare resources (and you have to wait at least 1 turn as well). The opportunity cost of waiting 3+ turns to lower it is completely untenable as well; in that time the enemy has already won.

c. Experience gain. In SoC the difference a few levels makes can be HUGE. In 3 levels you can take your magic resistance from 0 to 75%, for example, or give all your troops +25 attack/defence with cunning. So the fact that the losing hero gains no xp from their defeat while the winning one goes up several levels makes it so you are never catching up.

d. Momentum AKA win-more mechanic. This means that if you're outnumbered and you start losing stacks, ALL enemy units gain even more attack and defence and kill you even faster. So if you're outnumbered by 50% you might kill 20% of the enemy army, since as you lose stacks you lose essence AND you boost your opponent. Seriously what were you thinking with this? I guess it punishes players for having very small stacks, but the end result is you've ruined the longevity of the game.

All these factors mean once you lose one fight (often from an enemy bullrushing your hero from OVER FOUR TIMES outside your vision range), it's over. This is incredibly unsatisfying and I'm just flabbergasted that 20 years later you can make a game that fixes none of the issues around this and in fact makes them so much worse.

Solution: Some of these are very simple to fix. Give the losing hero experience on defeat, let them keep their artefacts, remove momentum completely, and possibly allow them to retreat and keep some of their units (maybe next turn their movement doubles but they can't attack and need to end movement in/near a friendly town? Many ways to do this).

3. NEXT-FIGHT BONUSES. The game has several structures that give incredibly high bonuses to the next fight. Things like stone alter (10 attack, 10 defence, 2 TROOP MOVEMENT!), Essence Anomaly (+1 of each essence per round), shrine of Aurelia (+1 troop movement, +5 initiative), and all of these stack.

The average space between opposing stacks on the battlefield is maybe 6-9 squares, and unit movement is usually 3-5. So these bonuses, especially to troop movement, are absolutely insane. Homm3 had a few structures that give morale and luck (and it was VERY hard to get more movement, only a few artifacts did), but the equivalent of all your troops having permanent high-level haste is completely ridiculous. The enemy troops will literally all be on top of you on turn 1, especially with factions like Rana that already have high movement and initiative.

Solution: Just remove them. Having so many structures with one-time bonuses are just obnoxious and unfun. The fact that it's an optimal strategy to suicide a crappy Weilder into the enemy first just to remove any of these bonuses is really dumb and unintuitive. It should take a very powerful spell to double all your troop movement, not visiting a stone alter and a big mushroom.

4. MANY SMALL THINGS. The three I listed are the major factors that make me uninterested in buying the game and continuing to play it, but there's a list of more minor quibbles that detract from quality of life:

a. Upgrading a building means you can't buy the unupgraded troop anymore. This is especially egregious with units like the Arleon knights, where the upgraded version costs Cerulean ore that you might have no way to retrieve. HoMM3 just lets you buy either version and it worked fine, I hate that upgrading my castle can many times be a bad decision because the next node might have no ore to pick up. Just let me train regular knights if I get bad RNG and no ore please?

b. You can still trade troops between weilders in a daisy chain, just like HoMM3 does it 20 years ago. This makes alpha strikes worse obviously, because with such high movement (and the rally building) one daisy chain lets you carry all your troops across the map to kill the enemy hero.

It's easy to fix too. If you trade troops from a hero with 3 movement left to a hero with 30 movement left, the recieving hero should go down to 3 movement too. The troops just walked for 8 hours, why are they suddenly able to walk again just because they changed heroes? This also slows the game down and means you have a chance to recover without letting the enemy daisy-chain reinforcements to the front lines instantly. Again letting the game have a natural back-and-forth seems obviously more fun than having the first fight end the game with the player just resigning.

c. Kiting and magic generation (vs ai mostly). One of the worst aspects of fighting neutrals is that the most efficient way to win is often with extreme kiting/stalling combined with magic. Here is an example of the worst offender:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrlerRtW3ok

I don't know how to fix this exactly; maybe after several rounds vs neutral mobs essence generation stops? It should never be optimal to take 1 fairy, or 1 burrower, and move around the map for 50 turns spamming boiling blood or fireball or whatever. It slows the game to a crawl and feels like an exploit. And since in multiplayer you need to wait for the opponent before you go, its an awful experience.

d. Defences suck. Towers and walls are lousy and offer very little advantage for their cost; you're much better off buying more troops or economic buildings with your money. HoMM3 made it quite painful to attack a castle; you couldn't just knock down the gate with a hit from two stacks (seriously why are gates so weak in SoC?!), you had to catapult it down while the arrow towers could kill a behemoth or pheonix in one turn. And castles increased your unit growth, so you have incentive to build them.

In SoC you get a few stacks of low-level troops and (at the precious cost of rare resources) a single ballista. Thus defensive play when you're on the backfoot is rarely feasible, adding to the one-fight-and-done gameplay.

_________________________________________________________

Ok, I'm done and I feel much better having written that all out :) . I've seen these kinds of things mentioned several times here on steam, on reddit, and on discord, so I have no illusion that anyone is going to fix any of this. But I'm disheartened seeing the team working on DLC and talking about how they want to focus on PVE more, when the PVE experience is fairly terrible against high-level AI, and the game is extremely flawed in its core design.
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Showing 1-15 of 46 comments
Adding one more to the list now; INCREDIBLY obnoxious skill-tree. I just tried one more game against Rana where my hero, Elisa Hammond, was at Level 8 with:

3 Cunning
3 Order magic
1 Eager

And my next intention was to get magic resistance. According to the chart that should be fairly easy, since the only skills I'd be given are impressive, chaos magic, magic resistance, learning, taxes or combat training. So a 33% chance each level up to get it (since it chooses 2 at random).

https://soc.th.gl/wielders/LadyElisaHammond

I got to LEVEL 15 and never once got magic resistance (5% chance, so certainly possible). And of course, once I fought the main enemy I was beaten by mass destruction magic which I had no counter for.

I mean....that's just a pure garbage system, flat out. The fact that magic resistance gives you 75% immunity, which STACKS with other effects, means that its pure luck whether you get crushed by magic or laugh it off.

There is something deeply flawed about a game where one RNG skill can even do that; in HoMM3 the similar skill resistance maxes to 20%(!?). Clearly the dev team realized how obnoxious a full magic-damage build was which is why they introduced a skill to negate it, but again I just get to level up and get garbage skills again and again (seriously "impressive" and "taxes" are just garbage on your main wielder).

If you're going to make skills that are practically mandatory against certain builds, I think offering just 2 choices per level up (and only one choice if an existing skill isn't maxed) is clearly a terrible solution. In HoMM3 super-important skills like Wisdom and schools of magic were offered every few levels. Songs of Conquest would be like if you could just randomly never got wisdom on your mage because you just rolled the dice poorly.
I agree with most points, but I would be really surprised if we get any of the suggested changes, it is too late, the game has been released and it is too dangerous to change game-defining mechanics from reputation perspective, many players would complain.
Last edited by sandman25dcsss; 12 Jul @ 11:05pm
Angus_Burger 14 Jul @ 12:13pm 
Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:
I agree with most points, but I would be really surprised if we get any of the suggested changes, it is too late, the game has been released and it is too dangerous to change game-defining mechanics from reputation perspective, many players would complain.

I'm suspecting you're right, but its a shame because many the things I (and others on discord) pointed out aren't that difficult to fix.

Things like increasing vision range across the board, or not giving away all hero artifacts on loss, or having the losing hero gain XP as well, or removing/curtailing momentum, are trivial to fix. It just seems like a lack of will or refusal to even consider PVP at all.

Like they copied Heroes of Might and Magic 3, arbitrarily changed a couple things (oh fog of war would be cool! Oh lets get rid of heroes retreating!) without thinking of the implications, and are now busy churning out DLC. I predict in a year this game will be completely dead; without a healthy PVP community people will get bored of the campaign or fighting the ai.

And that sucks! It's a great game with a lot of potential. So I hope we're both wrong :) .
Morphic 14 Jul @ 5:31pm 
A caveat I'd like to add about FoW in HoMM3... there was FoW in HoMM3. Inferno had a town upgrade that gives a large circle of permanent FoW to enemies. There was also a visit site that created FoW for the player that used it. IMO, it was significant since it could give a large advantage of covering an already explored/visible portion(namely town) so the enemy can't be sure if a Hero is there or not. (Tho it kinda didn't matter with farsight and whatnot spells or the extreme vision bonuses you can get)

So, while it wasn't what SoC is, HoMM3 did have FoW mechanics in it as well as other things to manipulate vision, like the Disguise spell.

That aside, I'd argue that those "next fight" sites are the built in "comeback mechanic" or rather what the Devs were intending for it to be used for. Enemy has unit/level advantage on you? Skirt around and stack a bunch of +stats for next fight and attack the enemy, since they can't see you have all those +stats, they are taken by surprise and devastated. Though, I agree it cuts both ways and becomes a "win more" feature as well.

As for Momentum... you already know why it is a mechanic; to counter 1 unit/small stacks. The way "mana" works in this game makes 1 unit stacks extremely viable/strong with certain setups. Magic is nearly as bad in SoC as HoMM because of this, e.g. as Lolth you can easily nuke armies within the first 1-3 turns of combat. Personally, I do not like like the magic system in SoC and I'm on the fence about Momentum.

All that said, the one thing I do completely agree with is Retreating being an option. In HoMM, you can Retreat to preserve your Hero/Artifacts and either 1) forfeit your army or 2) pay a ransom to the enemy to keep your army as well. I think this was a huge deal, especially in close matchups or artifact advantages. I do think you should lose everything if you lose a fight, artifacts included. Your Hero was defeated/killed after all. However, not having a Retreat option causes this to become an issue since, as you said, you lose a fight and it's basically over. (Tho Retreat was abusable in HoMM, suicide run a Hero with Arma blade or whatnot with high initiative, cast nuke -> Retreat -> Repeat)

TLDR: Basically, I disagree except on the point of Retreat being an option to preserve Artifacts. Personally, I dislike the "Essence" system in SoC and a few other notable things and generally still prefer HoMM3 or 5... I think SoC is solid and tried to bring "balance" to something that is inherently imbalanced. I don't think it accomplished it as there are, IMO, design/balance problems with SoC but such is the nature of these types of games. I'd rather have something imbalanced than something that is so finely balanced it become predictable.
Last edited by Morphic; 14 Jul @ 5:39pm
I don't really think that's a relevant caveat. A small FoW specifically generating around one town (Necropolis btw, NOT Inferno) is irrelevant to the general context that HoMM3, for 99% of the map (and 100% in most games), does not have a FoW. And the FoW that does exist is specifically around an upgraded enemy town in the late game (no competent necro opponent would buy that in early game, especially because ironically the FoW generating back will actually REVEAL your town to the enemy!).

For that reason in HoMM you aren't going to get suddenly ganked by a speedy ai that rushes out of a previously explored area into the middle of the map. By the time the FoW is relevant you would need to be near the enemy town, so it's actually a DEFENSIVE FoW. As well, it's trivial to spend 2500 gold and hire a hero to go peek around (or use a spell as you described). Disguise spell (which is almost never used as well) just shows your stacks as highest level units of your town. That isn't at all relevant to what I'm talking about.

It would be like if you said "units in HoMM3 do not generate mana like in SoC, and I like that" and I piped in with "no that's not true! Familiars generate mana with their ability if the enemy hero casts a spell!". Like, I'm technically correct but I'm not serving to inform the reader about the major differences between SoC and HoMM3, nor is the disagreement relevant to the mechanical discussion.

"Next Fight" sites are a terrible comeback mechanic for multiple reasons. First, the winning player can more easily afford to throw away a wielder vs the defending player, who is down a wielder by default and probably more than one. As well, usually these game-ending fights will happen in the middle of the map, over the central town. The losing player CANNOT afford to be on the defensive, wasting time visiting sites and waiting for the enemy. They need to go out and reconquer what was lost. In fact the enemy is the one with that luxury; they just won a fight and the loser will need at least a few turns to spawn, regather an army, pick up crappier artifacts from secondary wielders, and then march out. In this time the winning hero can afford to stop by a few locations to prepare for the crushing second battle.

Maybe If these sites only worked for a few turns after visiting, or they only worked in a certain distance from themselves, then your argument would have merit. As is nothing about these locations makes them a comeback mechanic, and it veers towards being the opposite.

Again I understand what the developers were doing with momentum... I just think it's a terrible idea and the consequence (each fight becomes a win-more afair where the loss of a few stacks starts to snowball the rest) are much worse than the intention (to punish rolling with a small stack).

The irony is that if your Lolth opponent is truly nuking your army, the 10/10 boost if you manage to kill their stack (a boost which does NOT improve magic resistance!) is probably not going to help you very much. It's a medicine that's much much worse than it's cure. If someone is relying on generating mana but playing with very tiny stacks, that's actually fair easy to punish by pushing them with ranged attacks, nuking their tiny stacks with your own spells, or of course boosting magic resistance and crushing them while laughing off their useless tiny stacks that are now a liability. There's really no reason for this mechanic to exist, I truly feel it makes the game much worse.

I agree the essence system misses the mark quite a bit, but my intention is to try and provide feedback that's actionable and improves the game. They can't redesign the whole magic system, but It is NOT that hard for them to remove the ridiculous "donate all artefacts when you die" mechanic. They could fix that in an hour or two. Nobody is asking them to redesign the entire game, just rethink some very poor mechanics, many of which were half-copied from HoMM without really thinking about why the other half was important.
Samseng Yik 15 Jul @ 3:04am 
2
"Donate all artifact" really need take a look into.
The game already has serious "unstable equilibrium", "winner get way stronger", "loser harder come back" or "snowballing" issue.

While the current magic system is not perfect, I think is a smart one, just need better balanced.
Galahad 15 Jul @ 4:27am 
Originally posted by Samseng Yik:
"Donate all artifact" really need take a look into.
The game already has serious "unstable equilibrium", "winner get way stronger", "loser harder come back" or "snowballing" issue.

While the current magic system is not perfect, I think is a smart one, just need better balanced.

There is no perfect solution here. I remember the situation in Heroes 5, when you defeat a bot at the cost of huge losses, and he simply runs away from the battlefield with all the artifacts, and since his unit growth is many times greater, he will quickly return. So this does not solve but aggravates the snowball problem.
Originally posted by Galahad:
Originally posted by Samseng Yik:
"Donate all artifact" really need take a look into.
The game already has serious "unstable equilibrium", "winner get way stronger", "loser harder come back" or "snowballing" issue.

While the current magic system is not perfect, I think is a smart one, just need better balanced.

There is no perfect solution here. I remember the situation in Heroes 5, when you defeat a bot at the cost of huge losses, and he simply runs away from the battlefield with all the artifacts, and since his unit growth is many times greater, he will quickly return. So this does not solve but aggravates the snowball problem.

That's not really what snowballing means here. If you beat the ai and just sat around waiting for them to return, then you deserve to lose. HoMM wasn't just about beating your opponent on the battlefield; it included taking advantage of your win to secure victory. You're advocating making the game much easier.

In exchange, the "donate artifacts" mechanic makes everything after that first fight completely pointless. Even if you're outnumbered, you just took all the opponent's items and you'll easily win the rematch.
Fully agree with OP. To add more - itemization in this game is boring. Most of the time you upgrade from +4 to +5 item etc. with no trade offs and no hard decisions.
For me, a lot of the games problems versus the AI specifically would be remedied if they just reduced the movement speed bonus they get and made their wielders less spammy. Due to the economy bonuses the AI gets on higher difficulties they are able to quickly churn out 3 or 4 junk wielders to eat the map and pester you. Even a wielder with 1 unit is a pain in the ass as they run circles around your territory snatching up all of your resource producing sites. It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ obnoxious. I don't want to have to keep a wielder in my territory to babysit my stuff against constant "le sneak attacks" from wielders with 1 unit of rats. Boring. Annoying. Not fun. I still think the AI should get economy bonuses to some extent (AI is stupid after all and needs some kind of advantage) but they need to find a way to limit this behavior specifically.

I honestly think a lot of the games lacking player base is due to annoying AI behavior. I get it, we all want a thriving PvP environment, but most players introduction to the game will be against the AI. If that experience sucks then they're never going to graduate to PvP, they're just going to stop playing the game. Currently, an AI match feels like a game of whack-a-mole rather than an intense back and forth between two military powers. This needs fixing before multiplayer balance can even be considered.

Edit: I did want to mention that I agree with most of your points fundamentally though. The game is too snowbally with too many silly mechanics (one time buffs are bad design) which exasperates AI nonsense and limits PvP appeal.
Last edited by BadAssMilkDaddy; 15 Jul @ 11:19am
Originally posted by BadAssMilkDaddy:
I honestly think a lot of the games lacking player base is due to annoying AI behavior. I get it, we all want a thriving PvP environment,
Speak for yourself, honestly, I couldn't care less about multiplayer. Strategy as a genre mostly isn't multiplayer-focused.

(This doesn't actually make your points any less important)
Originally posted by Angus_Burger:
Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:
I agree with most points, but I would be really surprised if we get any of the suggested changes, it is too late, the game has been released and it is too dangerous to change game-defining mechanics from reputation perspective, many players would complain.

I'm suspecting you're right, but its a shame because many the things I (and others on discord) pointed out aren't that difficult to fix.

Things like increasing vision range across the board, or not giving away all hero artifacts on loss, or having the losing hero gain XP as well, or removing/curtailing momentum, are trivial to fix. It just seems like a lack of will or refusal to even consider PVP at all.

Like they copied Heroes of Might and Magic 3, arbitrarily changed a couple things (oh fog of war would be cool! Oh lets get rid of heroes retreating!) without thinking of the implications, and are now busy churning out DLC. I predict in a year this game will be completely dead; without a healthy PVP community people will get bored of the campaign or fighting the ai.

And that sucks! It's a great game with a lot of potential. So I hope we're both wrong :) .
I wouldn't even hope. I created "Tutor is OP on large maps" thread 2 years ago during early game access and they finally fixed the issue a month ago or so by providing ability to disable it in game options.
I've honestly gotten the impression based on the combination of design decisions present in the game that it's SUPPOSED to be snowbally in order to prevent games being long/turtle-y?
I'm definitely not saying that I disagree with any of the points presented here, just that I also am not sure if these problems are problems in the eyes of the developers or if they're working as intended.

Like I can understand that it's difficult to think of an elegant solution to the "one big fight and done" problem. Lanchester's square law is always going to incentivize making sure you keep a fat doom stack together to definitively beat the other guy's fat doom stack, and when one of those stacks gets toppled, the loser will have lost so many rounds worth of resources versus the winner probably gaining a bunch of resources (or at least space) that recovery will never be able to happen quickly enough to prevent them from being crushed by the rolling snowball.

But when you consider all of that and then add on the consideration of how there are SO MANY other design elements of the game to add mass to the snowball once it starts rolling, it feels less like "oopsie whoopsie we accidentally made the problem worse" and more like "we actively want the game to be this way". At least that's what I would hope, because otherwise it's... Not a very good look for the game's design process.
Morphic 15 Jul @ 3:45pm 
Originally posted by Angus_Burger:
I don't really think that's a relevant caveat.[...]
That isn't at all relevant to what I'm talking about. Like, I'm technically correct but I'm not serving to inform the reader about the major differences between SoC and HoMM3, nor is the disagreement relevant to the mechanical discussion.

It is when my overall point was that there was vision manipulation in HoMM and how that affect your tactical options/strategy. This is why I went on to mention Disguise and Scry/Farsight spells. While there may not be as significant vision option in SoC, vision still is a big deal. The major divergence in SoC is that movement is far easier to increase and becomes a much bigger problem.(I'd like to see Disguise or something in SoC since it might make for more dynamic play)

I'd say that even with no FoW in SoC... it wouldn't matter since movement is such a big deal and easily increased, from skills to artifacts to visit sites. You may not like FoW mechanics but that doesn't mean it is bad design or needs to be changed.

Perhaps the disconnect is that you are speaking from the PvE experience, whereas I am using my generalized experience in both PvP and PvE. I agree that the plethora of Movement is an issue with regards to AI, since, as you said; it makes the AI fast and have an advantage. I'd argue that the AI needs such an advantage, even on lower difficulties, so it can actually have a chance against the player. Is it frustrating? Sure, depending on how you play and your skill level.

From a PvP perspective, no FoW means there is little risk once you scout your area or the enemy's. It devalues Vision artifacts and skills and steers the meta towards "damage" skills and artifacts. From my experience, you never have "Scout Heroes", you have your main hero and army jockies to resupply your main. Very rarely do you have multiple "battle" Heroes. FoW plays a role in helping diversity and tactical decisions. FoW actually makes getting "Scouts" worthwhile, or foregoing a damage artifact for a vision one. Is it good for SoC? IMO, hard to say because I am biased from competitive RTS and TBS games, and I think FoW isn't a core issue but is a contributor to larger balance issues. At least in a PvP setting.

Originally posted by Angus_Burger:
"Next Fight" sites are a terrible comeback mechanic for multiple reasons. [...]

I did say that they end up becoming a "win more" problem. I was merely pointing out that the Devs likely intended for them to play as a comeback mechanic. Which, they are, but you need to play around them. Your cherry scenario is an example of how it is a "win more" problem, which I already said is an issue. However, on the flipside, map layouts are a major factor, furthermore hero/enemy positioning is another. E.g. if I know I can't win in a straight fight and I can tell the enemy is coming... then I immediately begin retreating and go to stack up those visit sites. Now the enemy has to decide, do they hit up the town and cap it or go after my hero that is running away. Chances are they will hit up the town and raze it and move for my hero. That buys me ~1-2 turns to hit up more sites and turn on them.(or sneak in a scout hero to recap the town before it is completely razed)

Do I think they are a good "comeback mechanic"? No, obviously not since they can become a "win more" one. However, I do not think they should be completely removed. They are important for Early Game and become an issue mid to late game, but many, many things become an issue mid-late game.

Originally posted by Angus_Burger:
Again I understand what the developers were doing with momentum... I just think it's a terrible idea and the consequence (each fight becomes a win-more afair where the loss of a few stacks starts to snowball the rest) are much worse than the intention (to punish rolling with a small stack).

It is what it is because the way the Devs went about tying "mana" to unit stacks.

As for my Lolth example... not if you have higher initiative. Good luck use "ranged attacks" or "spells" to kill my small stacks when I've already blasted them apart because most of my units go first and thus charge my Essence. This is also why Initiative is such an imbalanced thing and every competitive player goes for it in PvP. It's also, IMO, why Rana is generally OP in most situations. Easy access to high Initiative as well as Destruction Essence.

Originally posted by Angus_Burger:
I agree the essence system misses the mark quite a bit, but my intention is to try and provide feedback that's actionable and improves the game. They can't redesign the whole magic system, but It is NOT that hard for them to remove the ridiculous "donate all artefacts when you die" mechanic. They could fix that in an hour or two. Nobody is asking them to redesign the entire game, just rethink some very poor mechanics, many of which were half-copied from HoMM without really thinking about why the other half was important.

Right, which is why I'm not actually trying to debate you and simply voicing my opinions and disagreement with some of your assertions. Out of everything you've said, I completely agree that they need to implement a Retreat mechanic or something to prevent all artifact loss. Unfortunately, the core gameplay is snowball or lose... which isn't really any different to many other games in the genre. This is why I really enjoy the early game but dislike mid game.

TLDR: I agree but also disagree lol. I think I've said what I've intended to say on each of your opinion/solutions. Above all, I do think we need a Retreat option or something to preserve Artifacts to help curb the snowball. Honestly, I don't see the Devs really doing anything at this point since the game is released and they are working on DLC. Snowball or lose is the nature of these types of games, unfortunately. It'd be nice if we had more of a Age of Wonders 2/3 design philosophy; where a single fight doesn't decide victory or defeat.
Last edited by Morphic; 15 Jul @ 4:00pm
While the OP is well written and argued, I personally don't agree with any of the points.

Reading it, I found myself thinking: Why play against a Deadly AI if you don't want that level of unbalance? Why not play against an easier AI level?

For normal play against balanced AI, I like the swingy nature of some of the mentioned issues. In particular, Momentum. It makes aggressive combat feasible where otherwise turtling might be the only optimal strategy. It is a counter to the use of 1 stacks.

Some of the issues mentioned can already be solved by creating/playing custom maps since the player base has access to the same map editor the devs use (no Aurelia statues, no Essence Anomaly, no fog of war, etc).

Some of the other issues could be solved for players that are like minded down the road if the game were made fully moddable.
Last edited by kev.student; 16 Jul @ 8:58am
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