I do also want to add a complaint that I feel is very important in this context, I really despise the camerawork in both this game and Elden Ring, the type of combat that they're trying to accomplish is simply an awful fit to the camera bouncing around the enemy when locked on, especially when playing in smaller rooms or with bosses that move across the stage in a split second.

This is very noticeable here, I'm up to the hooded long shadow miniboss, and this one in particular feels awful to control simply because I don't see at all what is actually going on in the fight.

The narrative of this game is like a book. You don't bother with empty things in the story it tells from beginning to end. You have a goal and focus on it. They don't sell you another fake story. This is what you will find in this game. Miyazaki has proven himself with his vision and this is what you will find in a generally positive game. This game is unique and there will be no games like this for a long time. You should value the works of visionary people. When names like Kojima, Miyazaki, Miyamoto retire somehow, things will not continue with the vision of these people. Microsoft, Ubisoft will buy everything and force you how to play the game. I really don't understand people. Everyone has read a thousand books but they don't read a book that everyone has read and they criticize it.

Originally posted by Varkster:

I do also want to add a complaint that I feel is very important in this context, I really despise the camerawork in both this game and Elden Ring, the type of combat that they're trying to accomplish is simply an awful fit to the camera bouncing around the enemy when locked on, especially when playing in smaller rooms or with bosses that move across the stage in a split second.

This is very noticeable here, I'm up to the hooded long shadow miniboss, and this one in particular feels awful to control simply because I don't see at all what is actually going on in the fight.

Maybe sword games aren't for you. Play fps.

Originally posted by spy:

Originally posted by Varkster:

I do also want to add a complaint that I feel is very important in this context, I really despise the camerawork in both this game and Elden Ring, the type of combat that they're trying to accomplish is simply an awful fit to the camera bouncing around the enemy when locked on, especially when playing in smaller rooms or with bosses that move across the stage in a split second.

This is very noticeable here, I'm up to the hooded long shadow miniboss, and this one in particular feels awful to control simply because I don't see at all what is actually going on in the fight.

Maybe sword games aren't for you. Play fps.

My games list is free for anyone to see, maybe don't assume about people and write mean-spirited comments in return to a discussion topic that I put out to gauge opinions.

I have played plenty of action games, again, something anyone can easily see by looking at my profile.

What you gave me isn't an opinion, you told me that the game has a story and that it's made by Miyazaki, which are, surprise, things I already knew.

People put Miyazaki and Kojima on pedestals and I'll never understand it, they are fallible people just like anybody else. I understand what you're saying about corporate video games, again, this has nothing to do with me criticising this specific video game and trying to understand what people love so much about it.

I didn't write anything about Miyamoto because I think Nintendo haven't lost a sense of quality since the 80s up until now as a whole, not something I can say for the rest of the industry.

In contrast, from my experience so far, this game and Elden Ring are steps back from Dark Souls and Bloodborne. This is, again, my opinion.

Sounds like it just isn't the game for you.

You talked about sponginess, but nothing is spongey in this game. Even the hardest bosses can be killed in a couple of minutes with the right methods. But you still argue you understand the combat. What's the most likely scenario is that you understand the bare basics so attacking and deflecting as your bread and butter (the thing that everyone that beats Sekiro once thinks is mastering the game) but, like I said, most things die fast when fought properly. The real meat of the combat isn't the play between attacks and deflects, is how you keep up the offensive at all times, turn a defensive moment into a push for the offensive and set the pace of combat yourself with interruptions, tools, arts and the multiple combinations of it.

If you want a better example of what I mean, look up ONGBAL in YouTube and watch some of his Sekiro videos. That approach to Sekiro is way harder, but leads to flashy and beautiful almost choreographed fights that finish up pretty damn quick.

That being said, most of your complains seem to come primarily from taste. The setting being something you don't particularly care about for example. Although I'll gladly admit the setting variety in Sekiro is lacking a lot, and on the combat front, considering the limited base moveset, it’s understandable that some people would find that base monotone. There’s also your overall mindset to it, indeed if you’re simply “getting through it”, you’re doing it wrong. The game’s meant to be fun, and fun is something intangible and very subjective. No need to find a big explanation for why this doesn’t fit the bill for you.

Then there's your complain about the camera. First of all, you're absolutely right about it. The camera's a ♥♥♥♥♥ and there's no two ways about it. It makes it so that positioning, so that the camera doesn't get stuck against a wall for example, becomes something way more important than it should be and for all the wrong reasons.

There's plenty of reasons behind the camera problems, but the primary one has to do with experience and tools, as almost every 3D action game you've ever play has these exact same issue EXCEPT that the devs for multiple other games have find workarounds and partial solutions to the myriad of 3D camera problems, plenty of which also From implements (look up the difference in foreground object transparency between DeS, DaS and DaS2 for example), many more of which From simply ignores.

For a nice little lesson on how different devs handle 3D camera problems, look at Nioh, Devil May Cry 5, Monster Hunter World and then compare them and the issues you talked about with Sekiro's and ER's camera, and you'll start to see how having more experience with these issues, and likely a more versatile engine, can lead to cleaner solutions, such as Monster Hunter's soft lock on system.

Originally posted by Varkster:

Originally posted by spy:

Maybe sword games aren't for you. Play fps.

My games list is free for anyone to see, maybe don't assume about people and write mean-spirited comments in return to a discussion topic that I put out to gauge opinions.

I have played plenty of action games, again, something anyone can easily see by looking at my profile.

What you gave me isn't an opinion, you told me that the game has a story and that it's made by Miyazaki, which are, surprise, things I already knew.

People put Miyazaki and Kojima on pedestals and I'll never understand it, they are fallible people just like anybody else. I understand what you're saying about corporate video games, again, this has nothing to do with me criticising this specific video game and trying to understand what people love so much about it.

I didn't write anything about Miyamoto because I think Nintendo haven't lost a sense of quality since the 80s up until now as a whole, not something I can say for the rest of the industry.

In contrast, from my experience so far, this game and Elden Ring are steps back from Dark Souls and Bloodborne. This is, again, my opinion.

So which games are ahead of this? It's just a click behind. The closest game to this game is Ninja Gaiden, and it doesn't even come close to the quality of this game. Maybe Nioh, but it doesn't even come close to the mechanics of this game.

I agree that my criticism is aggressive, but your criticism is an assumption made without having played a game in its entirety. Experience a piece of art fully before criticizing it. It's like playing it for 30 minutes and then making a negative comment. Then why did you buy it?

Originally posted by Don Lobo:

I did want to counter the point that I don't understand the combat and am going solely off basics as I did use the full toolset, and on my fifth try I got through the Lady Butterfly fight quite smoothly in under 2 minutes, shuriken for when she jumps, parry at the right moments, keep attacking between parries when she has a moment to breathe, dodge if things get hairy. Again, I see the flow of combat, I'm not going to say I mastered it, I only have 10 hours in the game, that's simply not enough to master it, but I see what is happening and what the design intends for me to do.

I have played all of the action games you've mentioned and I can say with confidence that even Nioh, despite that game being touted as the toughest thing in the world, I have a much more pleasant time playing than Sekiro thus far.

Maybe it's precisely BECAUSE of the hours I spent in Nioh that Sekiro at the moment isn't pulling me in. There are a lot of similarities in the Nioh games, alongside the setting, music and general feel, and so far in my mind I'm comparing the two subconsciously because it's the closest comparison I have under my belt.

I'll spend a few more hours in the game, because I definitely spent 30-40 in Dark Souls before I finally understood what I enjoyed about that series, but you may be right some games just might not be for me.

Originally posted by spy:

I agree that my criticism is aggressive, but your criticism is an assumption made without having played a game in its entirety. Experience a piece of art fully before criticizing it. It's like playing it for 30 minutes and then making a negative comment. Then why did you buy it?

About the games that come close, I was replying to your comment on how I should go play FPS games if 'sword games aren't for me'. If you look at my list of games, I think FPS is the vast minority.

As a response to the above, mate I have 10 hours in the game. That's not = 30 minutes. Don't downplay the time I've already sunk into the game, I already beat 2 main bosses and on my way to the third, I get to criticise a piece of art if I see it has flaws, and I get to ask about opinions on it. Again, instead of providing a constructive opinion you stated two simple facts, which was unhelpful considering the rest of your comment felt like white knighting the game and trying to have a dig at my game preferences.

Never mind. play ghost of tsushima and clear 40 camps to get stronger. you like grinding.

Originally posted by Varkster:

I'm about 10 hours in, just beat Lady Butterfly, I 'get' the combat, unsure if I am enjoying myself. Beating the bosses here does not feel anywhere near as rewarding as other games from the same developer, it feels like I just beat a boss/miniboss, okay, let's move onto the next one, oh here's the next boss/miniboss. Rinse, repeat.

I understand the combat, it takes me 5-10 tries to beat bosses (aside from some minibosses), the Japanese setting does nothing for me because I've seen it 1000 times over in all sorts of media, including dozens of video games I own, it doesn't strike me as anywhere near inspired as something like Bloodborne or Dark Souls.

I've not been having a lot of fun with this game, something about the 2-hit kills by the bosses/enemies and general sponginess is turning me off, I understand that parrying and running down the boss stamina is key but as I mentioned above, I don't feel overtly great even when defeating a boss, it just feels like a means to an end.

I don't really get why the game received critical acclaim and won GOTY, I wanted to gauge peoples' opinions on what they like about the game and how it's superior to any other game, what are its standouts, etc. I'm not 100% sure if I want to continue playing through the game if it makes me feel somewhat miserable and not fulfilled even when I pull off something cool, like I do in the other games of this 'type'.

its mainly game for controllers I think.

so if you have spent years on a gamepad clutching than this is a cool game. it must really feel like you are a character when playing this game.

but for pc gamers generally I dont think this game is very enjoyable. mainly because theres no difficulty adjustment and therefor is not for everyone. ''So sold to everyone for 50$ and not for everyone''.

its very cool tho and deserves its place in video game Hall of Fame, because its original and doesnt care. it is what it is.

I greatly enjoy the combat. Especially after playing a game that more or less discards the absolute fun parts about this game in lieu of doing "worse Bayonetta with Sekiro framing." It's a great action game where you can really impose on enemies and have, relative to modern contemporaries, extreme amounts of aggression. Some moron called offense a "gameplay style" and he really clearly doesn't understand that Sekiro affords you basic, rewarding options that other action games won't give you.

I mean something as simple as "You can be the aggressor by initiating offense and the game won't immediately kill you or deal significant damage for trying this."

The game's story, the whole construction of it, it is a class act. If you want to "move out of way and attack" there are plenty of other action games for that. In Sekiro, you're more or less assessing targets based on their weight/size relative to yours. There are enemies where you want to whittle down the target using movement and charged attacks, but it really depends on what is giving you difficulty.

"Sponginess" means that, potentially, something isn't clicking. But I like how the game emphasizes clashing swords and contact with enemies in a way other action games just don't. There's no real useful general advice and I know how insufferable people can be about this stuff. I know why I like the game, I think in the throes of frustration and still being on that journey where this type of game can really get on your nerves. I think Sekiro, unlike many of its contemporaries, is very rewarding if you stick with it.

Originally posted by Varkster:

This is very noticeable here, I'm up to the hooded long shadow miniboss

Yeah, the Long Shadow encounters are... I'd say an actual low point of the game in terms of the camera unlocking. Having someone tell you "Deese games not 4 u" in response to a genuinely frustrating part of the game was idiotic of them. I know how to deal with them, but I know of one Lone Shadow who, when I'm doing low upgrades/attack power or certain routing, who will sometimes just hit me or kill me because, oops, he won't get off the wall and the camera unlocked. If I can't see what he's doing then it's a ♥♥♥♥ show as far as avoiding damage. If I saw what pattern he was on prior, it's fairly easy at this point but there is a reason for that. Route memorization, which isn't a dealbreaker to me anyway.

There are moments like that in action games, and I can say that if the game were hyper saturated with it, I'd like it a lot less. There are plenty of ways to deal with it, though, but as you start out it's just something where you have to give the game a bit of trust even though it's ostensibly annoying the ♥♥♥♥ out of you.

Why do I love Sekiro? Cause of the combat and how engaging it is. I really enjoy that when the enemy or boss is attacking, you don't watch out and try to evade the attacks(most of the time at least) but instead you just go in there and counter it. So unlike the classical souls games, you actually can do something while the boss finishes their combo. So wherther you are playing offensively or defensively, you are always progress towards that victory.
I also love how fast sekiro can react. At points you do stuff by accident when hitting buttons and it still works out. Sekiro also has one of the fastest animation cancelings I have ever seen in a game besides the Batman Arkham games. Like, it has saved me multiple times from different attacks, usually thrust attacks though.
Also really enjoyed the fact that Sekiro can defend himself and he always has a way to counter every attack. This is also why I prefer it to something like Elden Ring because Sekiro doesn't feel useless. But then sekiro has no poise stat and can run around without breaking a sweat.
They also introduced very nice gameplay mechanics like mikiri counter and the whole memory thing where you get to fight bosses again and again. (really would have loved to see that be brought back in Elden but oh well)

I went into Elden Ring after this game and came back to this again recently. I still prefer Sekiro to Elden due to how much more egaging I found the combat. Also, Elden made me fear no boss in Sekiro anymore. The pain and suffering in that game made me face all bosses I disliked and didn't enjoy, in this game, fair and square. No backstabs and no other cheese, just a 1v1.

This is just some general thoughts I have about the game because I am not writing a list or an essay on everything I really enjoyed or loved about this game lol.

Sidenote: I have only played 3 fromsoft games, sekiro, elden and bloodborne and after playing elden and trying to get all achievements in that game, I realized something. If im gonna dodge, im a bigger fan of the step dodge (such as in bloodborne and sekiro) than the roll. Personally, it just feels more efficient.

From hour 1 I have loved the second to second gameplay - the movement, jumping, clashing swords, deathblows, it all felt immaculate. As the game went on I was starting to appreciate the level design, the different playstyles that skills and prosthetics allowed, and the eerie mythological story elements, even though I could care less about the actual plot. I’m still on my first playthrough, having just beat Owl but I skipped through most of the level to get to him so I’ll clean up before advancing.

It’s such a complete, polished, snappy, perfectly tuned thing. It gets you into a flow state like no other game. Also, it shouldn’t be compared to Souls, it’s different in pretty much every way that matters.

How many of you are playing with a controller vs a keyboard? Just curious. It feels like Fromsoftware codes all their games with an xbox controller in hand.