Franks should have light cavalry, because they are supposed to be a cavalry civ. Also, light cavalry units are good overall but not op for late game contrary to hussars. Light cavalry I think works best only for Castle Age and early Imperial Age. Teutons in contrast are not specifically a cavalry civ which would help explain why they lack both light cavalry and husbandry despite them having the paladin upgrade. To put into perspective as to how weak Frank light cavalry is they only get 72 hp contrary to 80 hp with bloodlines, because 20% of 60 is less than 20 hp.

The question is... do you even know what is trash unit and gold unit? Or how upgrade in blacksmith affects units ingame?

Trying to explain Birds post: if you want to nerf Viking or Celtic cav you probably don't know that they are very bad and are played never for Vikings and in 2% of Celt games.

Ok so Viking Cavalry Archers, which have no Heavy upgrade, no Parthian Tactics, no Bloodlines, no Husbandry, no Thumb Ring, and no Civ bonus or UT, is something you're suggesting a nerf on?
And their Light Cavalry, which have no Hussar upgrade, no Bloodlines, no Husbandry, and no Plate Barding Armor?
... do you know how to play Vikings?

Originally posted by Hexi:

Franks just do knights well and have generic infantry and good enough siege/monks. There are far more broken civs in the game than franks.

Throwing Axeman is underrated imo, but factually correct post.

Originally posted by Silver:

Why not nerf them to scout cavalry like teutons? They can rely on their knight line and are great at other stuff too like archery range, barracks, castles, docks,...

In general I feel like western european civs should have their trash units nerfed (celtic hussars? viking cavalry archers? frankish heavy cavalry archers? gimme a break!), including elite skirmishers so that eastern civs can tout these as greater strengths while western european ones focus on heavily armored units just like back in the day.

Except that is not his torically accurate either.
The best light Infantry and Skirmishers in the Middle Ages were western europeans (Almogavares).
Halberdiers are synonimous with Europe too, specially Western Europe.
Pike Squares and the best Pikemen in the world were from Western Europe.
Genitours and Hobelars were also powerful Light Cavalry in Western Europe.

Also there is the gameplay element. No civ can compete without Trash units, so if you wanted to make all European civs have no good Trash units, you would have to give them a way to make Champions, Arbalests and Paladins without Gold, so you would be making their Trash Wars endgame EVEN STRONGER!

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Silver:

Why not nerf them to scout cavalry like teutons? They can rely on their knight line and are great at other stuff too like archery range, barracks, castles, docks,...

In general I feel like western european civs should have their trash units nerfed (celtic hussars? viking cavalry archers? frankish heavy cavalry archers? gimme a break!), including elite skirmishers so that eastern civs can tout these as greater strengths while western european ones focus on heavily armored units just like back in the day.

Except that is not his torically accurate either.
The best light Infantry and Skirmishers in the Middle Ages were western europeans (Almogavares).
Halberdiers are synonimous with Europe too, specially Western Europe.
Pike Squares and the best Pikemen in the world were from Western Europe.
Genitours and Hobelars were also powerful Light Cavalry in Western Europe.

Also there is the gameplay element. No civ can compete without Trash units, so if you wanted to make all European civs have no good Trash units, you would have to give them a way to make Champions, Arbalests and Paladins without Gold, so you would be making their Trash Wars endgame EVEN STRONGER!

Historical accuracy isn't the point of AoE. Hence, why crossbows and trebuchets are ubiquitous, Ghengis Khan can fight Attilla the Hun, etc etc.

My point is there's absolutely no reason to nerf Franks light cav or Viking cav archers and other aforementioned units because they're obviously not over-performing or over centralizing, at all.

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Except that is not his torically accurate either.
The best light Infantry and Skirmishers in the Middle Ages were western europeans (Almogavares).
Halberdiers are synonimous with Europe too, specially Western Europe.
Pike Squares and the best Pikemen in the world were from Western Europe.
Genitours and Hobelars were also powerful Light Cavalry in Western Europe.

Also there is the gameplay element. No civ can compete without Trash units, so if you wanted to make all European civs have no good Trash units, you would have to give them a way to make Champions, Arbalests and Paladins without Gold, so you would be making their Trash Wars endgame EVEN STRONGER!

Historical accuracy isn't the point of AoE. Hence, why crossbows and trebuchets are ubiquitous, Ghengis Khan can fight Attilla the Hun, etc etc.

My point is there's absolutely no reason to nerf Franks light cav or Viking cav archers and other aforementioned units because they're obviously not over-performing or over centralizing, at all.

Yet his whole point for removing Cavalry Archers, Skirmishers, and other units from Western European civs, was History.

I guess he does not know History.

The only unit I could agree to remove from European civs, is teh Cavalry Archer, but then they would have to introduce a Cranequier unit. Maybe even a Mounted Pistollier unit.

Calvary archers are not that good with Franks. They pack thumb ring, Parthian tactics, and the last two blacksmith upgrades. Franks are currently the only civ as well that lacks both bracer and bracer archer armor. Celts used to have this as well before they were buffed.

Originally posted by James3157:

Calvary archers are not that good with Franks. They pack thumb ring, Parthian tactics, and the last two blacksmith upgrades. Franks are currently the only civ as well that lacks both bracer and bracer archer armor. Celts used to have this as well before they were buffed.

Don't you mean that Franks lack those techs? Must have been a typo.