i miss old sandman

Originally posted by PotentiallySquishy:

i miss old sandman

I don't.

Originally posted by PotentiallySquishy:

i miss old sandman

Me too, friend. Me too.

I don't think you can compare an unlock that diverges from a normal playstyle to an unlock that's more or less a direct upgrade because it has a stun mechanic that can strip away the enemy's ability to shoot and sometimes the ability to move.

You don't miss the old sandman.
You miss the old sandman + cleaver combo.

dont you have your own little server with old sandman? just play that

Originally posted by ๋Foster:

I don't think you can compare an unlock that diverges from a normal playstyle to an unlock that's more or less a direct upgrade because it has a stun mechanic that can strip away the enemy's ability to shoot and sometimes the ability to move.

You don't miss the old sandman.
You miss the old sandman + cleaver combo.

How is -15hp a direct upgrade?

also the huntsman is okay because it disables snipers ability to single handedly hold an entire sightline by replacing his 150 damage hitscan body shot that is extremely easy to hit to a projectile that is dodgable, reflectable, and doesnt have infinite range.

Yes sometimes a sniper will full charge a huntsman and as you turn a corner you die, same thing happens with lots of other classes.

Compare that to a scout melee that is extremely spammable compared to the huntsman, lets you keep arguably one of the best primaries in the game being the scattergun avaliable, the projectile you have removes the enemies ability to fight back, self recharges and can be repicked up and you have a recipe for an unfun time.

I much rather some huntsman sniper get a lucky prefire headshot then give scout, one of the best classes a literal stun and let him keep his shotgun for the downside of 15hp

Originally posted by Man of Mines | castaway.tf:

Originally posted by ๋Foster:

I don't think you can compare an unlock that diverges from a normal playstyle to an unlock that's more or less a direct upgrade because it has a stun mechanic that can strip away the enemy's ability to shoot and sometimes the ability to move.

You don't miss the old sandman.
You miss the old sandman + cleaver combo.

How is -15hp a direct upgrade?

-15 hp isn't.

Being able to strip away someone's ability to shoot or move entirely is.

If you read my comment completely you'd anwser your own question.

Originally posted by ๋Foster:

Originally posted by Man of Mines | castaway.tf:

How is -15hp a direct upgrade?

-15 hp isn't.

Being able to strip away someone's ability to shoot or move entirely is.

If you read my comment completely you'd anwser your own question.

So what happens in the weаpon's 15 second downtime then? What if you're missing your shots? You just have a flat -15hp with no benefit whatsoever. This is like saying the ambassador is a straight upgrade if you're always hitting headshots because it invalidates its slower firing speed. And also, this is fаir balancing considering all weapons to an extent nullify their downside or at-least reduce its detriment through the encouragement of another kind of playstyle with its benefits.

In the sandman's case, it's encouraging you to go out of your way to throw the ball and try and hit more skilled shots as the otherwise fully-hitscan class, and if you hit them you get more reward than if you had never equipped it at all - in other words it's heightening the class's skill ceiling. If you're missing them or taking poorly-conceived risks then you're punished harder than if you never had it equipped to begin with. It's a classic example of balancing using a higher skill requirement, and the tradeoff being vulnerability which is entirely fair.

Originally posted by rin:

also the huntsman is okay because it disables snipers ability to single handedly hold an entire sightline by replacing his 150 damage hitscan body shot that is extremely easy to hit to a projectile that is dodgable, reflectable, and doesnt have infinite range.

Yes sometimes a sniper will full charge a huntsman and as you turn a corner you die, same thing happens with lots of other classes.

Compare that to a scout melee that is extremely spammable compared to the huntsman, lets you keep arguably one of the best primaries in the game being the scattergun avaliable, the projectile you have removes the enemies ability to fight back, self recharges and can be repicked up and you have a recipe for an unfun time.

I much rather some huntsman sniper get a lucky prefire headshot then give scout, one of the best classes a literal stun and let him keep his shotgun for the downside of 15hp

Talking about the huntsman like it's "disabling" or nerfing the default Sniper is a bit of a stretch considering it's an entirely different playstyle. The Sniper, who is arguably one of the most defenseless classes bar the Medic in close range, now has the ability to fight close range and can be a lot more aggressive. Bringing the default sniper-rifle into this matter like it's an inherent major downside doesn't complement the discussion at all.

"Yes sometimes a sniper will full charge a huntsman and as you turn a corner you die, same thing happens with lots of other classes."

You're right, but how is dying unexpectedly out of nowhere from some sticky-trap you had no means of seeing, some huntsman arrow that was mindlessly spammed, or some beggar's bazooka soldier holding in his rockets with a taunt any better gameplay-wise than seeing a ball coming and getting hit with it with still a fighting chance to live than literally being dead immediately? Now of-course you can be hit with a sandman ball unexpectedly, but its entire old design of 15 second recharge means you could not spam with this thing whatsoever. You were incentivised to aim your projectile and use a degree of skill rather than brainlessly spamming it like the scorch shot or the huntsman arrows.

"Compare that to a scout melee that is extremely spammable compared to the huntsman..."

This tells me you know literally nothing of the sandman's design if you unironically believe this. You can fire repeat huntsman arrows with just a second apart if you really want to capitalise on the spam. The sandman took 15 whole seconds to recharge, which could feel like forever in TF2, and very often you would be on the sandman's downtime most of the time you're running this thing. The huntsman is active always, has no significant downtime except a reload animation, and is overall much more oppressive of a weapon than the sandman ever was (except its literal first iteration that lasted about a month before being nerfed).

"I much rather some huntsman sniper get a lucky prefire headshot then give scout, one of the best classes a literal stun"

"I would rather be dead immediately with no counterplay whatsoever because I'm literally dead than have a chance to be hit by a ball, go third person, and live."
Yikes. TFtuber anti-stun brainwashing slор really is effective nowadays.

hmmmm was it okay heavies 7 second stunned with skillful sandman? stop throwin balls this poor fat mans

Sniper has gotten special treatment in relation to covering his niche as the long range specialist of the game with the only exception being pyro's flareguns. Multiple weapons have been nerfed for "encroaching on the design of the Sniper" that belong to other classes. Yet Sniper, the long range specialist, get's one of the strongest melee combos in the entire game with jarate and bushwacka and one of the strongest mid-range weapons in the huntsman.

However I think the magic bullet for keeping Sniper in check is not actually nerfing sniper but making Spy an absolute direct counter to Sniper no matter the circumstance. If a Spy so chooses they should have no issue killing a Sniper that is better than them even with a team nearby and the razorback on, whether that is done through weapon adjustment or buffs to Spy in general I don't really care. I would gladly accept a massive nerf to the Kunai and Diamondback if we could get buffs to other weapons that make Spy the best Sniper killer in the game even better than Sniper itself.

Originally posted by Man of Mines | castaway.tf:

Originally posted by rin:

also the huntsman is okay because it disables snipers ability to single handedly hold an entire sightline by replacing his 150 damage hitscan body shot that is extremely easy to hit to a projectile that is dodgable, reflectable, and doesnt have infinite range.

Yes sometimes a sniper will full charge a huntsman and as you turn a corner you die, same thing happens with lots of other classes.

Compare that to a scout melee that is extremely spammable compared to the huntsman, lets you keep arguably one of the best primaries in the game being the scattergun avaliable, the projectile you have removes the enemies ability to fight back, self recharges and can be repicked up and you have a recipe for an unfun time.

I much rather some huntsman sniper get a lucky prefire headshot then give scout, one of the best classes a literal stun and let him keep his shotgun for the downside of 15hp

Talking about the huntsman like it's "disabling" or nerfing the default Sniper is a bit of a stretch considering it's an entirely different playstyle. The Sniper, who is arguably one of the most defenseless classes bar the Medic in close range, now has the ability to fight close range and can be a lot more aggressive. Bringing the default sniper-rifle into this matter like it's an inherent major downside doesn't complement the discussion at all.

"Yes sometimes a sniper will full charge a huntsman and as you turn a corner you die, same thing happens with lots of other classes."

You're right, but how is dying unexpectedly out of nowhere from some sticky-trap you had no means of seeing, some huntsman arrow that was mindlessly spammed, or some beggar's bazooka soldier holding in his rockets with a taunt any better gameplay-wise than seeing a ball coming and getting hit with it with still a fighting chance to live than literally being dead immediately? Now of-course you can be hit with a sandman ball unexpectedly, but its entire old design of 15 second recharge means you could not spam with this thing whatsoever. You were incentivised to aim your projectile and use a degree of skill rather than brainlessly spamming it like the scorch shot or the huntsman arrows.

"Compare that to a scout melee that is extremely spammable compared to the huntsman..."

This tells me you know literally nothing of the sandman's design if you unironically believe this. You can fire repeat huntsman arrows with just a second apart if you really want to capitalise on the spam. The sandman took 15 whole seconds to recharge, which could feel like forever in TF2, and very often you would be on the sandman's downtime most of the time you're running this thing. The huntsman is active always, has no significant downtime except a reload animation, and is overall much more oppressive of a weapon than the sandman ever was (except its literal first iteration that lasted about a month before being nerfed).

"I much rather some huntsman sniper get a lucky prefire headshot then give scout, one of the best classes a literal stun"

"I would rather be dead immediately with no counterplay whatsoever because I'm literally dead than have a chance to be hit by a ball, go third person, and live."
Yikes. TFtuber anti-stun brainwashing slор really is effective nowadays.

Once again, you literally proved my point that huntsman sniper is a completely different balancing issue compared to sandman scout.

Spammability I meant to say huntsman is more spammable but Sandman is more spammable during a fight

Huntsman sniper misses? Reload, recharge, probably dead by now.
Sandman misses? Don't worry you have an amazing scattergun to use, double jump, amazing movement speed and all for... 15hp.

Also sniper isn't defenseless short range with a sniper rifle, rifle does 50 damage a shot hipfire, SMG, jarate+bushwaka exists, quickscoping exists.

Sniper is pretty good at all ranges, not the best at close range but still quite good, anyone who doesn't think so can't play sniper above a pubbers experience level.

Castawaytuber woke virus infected another or something bait to make you respond idk.

Originally posted by rin:

Castawaytuber woke virus infected another

TL;DR of this entire post more or less

Originally posted by rin:

Once again, you literally proved my point that huntsman sniper is a completely different balancing issue compared to sandman scout.

Spammability I meant to say huntsman is more spammable but Sandman is more spammable during a fight

Huntsman sniper misses? Reload, recharge, probably dead by now.
Sandman misses? Don't worry you have an amazing scattergun to use, double jump, amazing movement speed and all for... 15hp.

Also sniper isn't defenseless short range with a sniper rifle, rifle does 50 damage a shot hipfire, SMG, jarate+bushwaka exists, quickscoping exists.

Sniper is pretty good at all ranges, not the best at close range but still quite good, anyone who doesn't think so can't play sniper above a pubbers experience level.

Castawaytuber woke virus infected another or something bait to make you respond idk.

Yeah, the Sniper misses and he gets punished for it. He also has objectively a far more rewarding shot for when he DOES hit his projectile than the sandman did, which puts the two weapons at the least on the same level again in terms of risk and reward. He gets 120 damage flat on bodyshot, and given the tendency of huntsman arrows to attach to the head hitbox so easily he can spamfire an arrow without even charging which can straight up instakill all light classes and Medic.

120 damage is also so effective that it can still finish off a light class if the Sniper then pulls out his smg and does chip damage. Scouts can't even stun at close range, and if you're missing or straight up not using the sandman then you're basically just a Scout who self-nerfed his health for no reason and would be doing BETTER than stock if he had just went in for a meatshot instead.

Sniper is mostly defenseless. No class is ever truly "defenseless" in TF2 if they're skilled enough. Even at a disadvantage you still have seldom of a chance in the vast majority of circumstances. That's why the sandman is fine in practise. Unless you're already dead, you still have a chance. Which is why arguing that instant death is somehow preferable to being stunned is beyond me.