ES gets some pretty significant stuff to compensate for the lack of racial transformations. It's true that Champion is strong right now for the reasons you outlined and more, but to say ES is weaker than WK for example is silly, I think.

Madcaster specifically is really nutbars because of the chance to just no-sell even a high-tier unit every fight in a couple of different ways. And that's not to mention the economic benefits of being able to summon units without mana (triggering fights for "free"), the early benefit of the Recruiting ritual on your military to get a strong snowball started, and the cumulative benefit of the Knowledge ritual over the course of the game.

If Triumph could just do a balance pass on the other two "classes" of ES, I think it'll be in a really solid place.

You're correct though in that; in terms of Signature skills, ES basically has 3 classes. Since Lv 12 diverges twice there are basically 6 possible permutations of ES in regards to signature skills.

Part of the limitation in regards to ES is that they also only have Mage and Ritualist available - With Mage having hyper synergy and Ritualist having extremely limited synergy. This isn't just due to Ritualist itself - Lv 16 Nature Dragon Ritualist is likely busted.

Hmm I might need to try Mad caster out. Mad Caster is the only signature skill type I haven't tried out and truth be told I was very inclined to have never tried it out due to the RNG nature of the skill... Re-reading the effects they are pretty good though barring the +10 healing ofc. As I tend to go heavy in combat casting mitigation anyways (IE Death Magic, Astral/Mystic in general) then the casting bonuses seemed a bit trite as well.

That the lv 12 signature skill makes it a 2 Hex is very promising as well...

-----

I have two different completed ES ATM with my first being Mindbreaker followed by Fleshweaver.

Mindbreaker just seems like a no-brainer if you intend to heavily use debuffs. Solid CC and a global bonus to status resist penetration? Yes please. Seems like a no-brainer for an ES actively using Mage skills.

I just finished my last game as Fleshweaver ES and I have mixed feelings about it. I liked the concept thematically due to it being a Mystic Summoner playthrough but... Low HP + suicide bombers. Summons are generally good but IIRC sometimes they summons would get killed by AOE and when they got ignored it was basically a delayed AOE with very constrained targeting.

Possession as a free action buff should be nice but - The fact that it basically assures a 50% HP drop might be a rather annoying thing for creeping with auto-battle. My last game was largely auto-battle and I just realized that this might have been the reason for some odd HP losses? lol

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Mindbreaker just seems like a no-brainer if you intend to heavily use debuffs.

It's important if you use debuffs that have a resistance check and you don't have a ton of status resistance shredding from other sources, but a number of debuffs (including madcaster) don't have a resistance check.

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Mindbreaker just seems like a no-brainer if you intend to heavily use debuffs.

It's important if you use debuffs that have a resistance check and you don't have a ton of status resistance shredding from other sources, but a number of debuffs (including madcaster) don't have a resistance check.

Yes I deleted a comment relating to that (since its already too much perhaps lol) that it may be nice for Ritualist due to their inability to buff their debuff resistance checks.

Then I noticed that "Mad Caster" abilities have the "Magic" tag which would benefit from Magic attack buffs anyways...

I think part of my issue with ES is that I can't see any real reason why all of them shouldn't be Mages lol. I think the only synergy Ritualist has with ES is the +10 HP for summons. And that only really applies for the start of combat auto-summon.

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

I think part of my issue with ES is that I can't see any real reason why all of them shouldn't be Mages lol. I think the only synergy Ritualist has with ES is the +10 HP for summons. And that only really applies for the start of combat auto-summon.

I think Ritualist might not be quite as hopeless as you're thinking. Direct synergy pieces are not the be-all and end-all of Ruler creation, and just having a stupidly strong utility piece from Turn 1 really helps shore up the weaknesses of certain cultures (looking at you, Dark and Reaver). On top of that, there's the benefit you get from using the free combat summon in combination with more xenophilic cultures like High and Barbarian. Ritualist gets less synergy precisely because its base kit is so useful for early game momentum.

The ES also gets certain racial traits, like Overwhelm Tactics and such. Probably others too like Tough/Resistant, would have to look into the stats breakdown.

He doesn't get the racial transformations, but he is a Magic Origin Unit and thus Cosmic Overdrive applies to him for a flat +30% damage and very fast movement. It's quite hilarious actually. He also benefits from the Mystic-Summoner bonuses.

Overall he is probably the strongest candidate for a one-man doomstack (with astral+shadow perks and spells). Unlike the pervertedly strong Materium Aspect warrior dragon, he cannot be simply shut down with a single Blind / Decay debuff from what he's doing.

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

...

Athletics certainly applies. I believe Arcane Focus (IE +15% Magic Attack) also applies which is part of the reason I've been a bit obsessed with creating Ruler / Culture / Race synergies. (IIRC, these attributes persist with Pantheon heroes.)

I'm guessing that one man Doomestack ES is basically kiting with combat spells + infinite range forbidden tome skills? Or can this apply to auto-battle as well. I tend to treat this game like Ogre Battle and Unicorn Overlord. IE at least 95% of my plathrough is likely to be auto-battle lol.

My first Dragon was a Materium Dragon and while he is indeed amazing the ways you can build Dragons as a whole is just ridiculously diverse. Necro Dragons are amazing, Breath damage Dragons are extremely promising (IE +30% damage 1st, +30% 3rd, and ANOTHER +30% at 4th from signature skills alone...). Dragon is likely even the best possible Ritualist hero (IE Nature Dragon signatures, likely made obscene with particular Pantheon skills).

Originally posted by Baron:

...

Hmm I keep going back and forth with Ritualist and am presently at all all-time low in regards to how I view them ATM.

I suppose I could just go all in with Summons and invest in their unique skills? Although is Turn 1 advantage really accurate considering Zombie Keeper (lv 2) and Conjure Lesser Spirit (Lv 3). Are you referring to Pantheon weapon summons?

I usually like Ritualists for their action economy with both "restore" and "conjure wildgrowth" allowing double actions via swift actions. However ES has a lot of 3 action abilities which have anti-synergy with this.

im playing an ES for the first time this campaign and this thing is straight busted. mind control, hexes, insanity, debuff central, 10 tile cast range to snipe things. then again i only play against the computer so maybe it sucks in MP, couldnt say

Originally posted by donut32:

im playing an ES for the first time this campaign and this thing is straight busted. mind control, hexes, insanity, debuff central, 10 tile cast range to snipe things. then again i only play against the computer so maybe it sucks in MP, couldnt say

The gameplay difference between the different ruler types is pretty rad. Have you tried out Dragon Lord yet?

I find that once you get used to using the Item Forge Champions and WK catch up again. Doubly so as racial transformations may free up item slots for other effects. Example: Eldritch Sovereign cannot get "Control Loss Immunity" without using the ring slot for total status immunity (correct me if I'm wrong). Champion/WK can use Major Angel Transformation to cover "Control Loss Immunity" (and other debuffs with different transformations) to use the ring slot for more offensive purposes.

I actually really enjoy ES with my next campaign likely to be an ES to try out the last signature skill tree.

As before though my intent is NOT an analysis of the Ruler strengths but how ES seems a bit shafted when it comes to Pantheon bonuses... Along with the low variability among ES leading to the most limited Pantheon heroes that way as well.

I'm guessing that one man Doomestack ES is basically kiting with combat spells + infinite range forbidden tome skills? Or can this apply to auto-battle as well. I tend to treat this game like Ogre Battle and Unicorn Overlord. IE at least 95% of my plathrough is likely to be auto-battle lol.

Indeed, do the thing which you can even do with a Scout - prepare a bucket full of explosive manifestations, sprinkle in some devouring void to taste, and run your only unit to the farthest corner of the map. Death magic regenerates all your casting points so you can do this forever since even your own summons provide +10CP refund on death.

Difference with the ES specifically is that you have the arcane and chaos tome skills with unlimited range, plus the Mage skill debuffs from that, plus a second teleport with 6 range. It is fairly obscene.

It may work in autobattle, but usually it is total chaos with the ES teleporting in and using his melee attack. And if you have like 20 combat spells, the chance for the AI to use explosive manifestation is near zero.

The warrior dragon ruler is better at fully autonomous autobattle, but as mentioned he can be completely shut down by a single Mage using Curse with frozen, blind and decay every 2 turns. Not to mention the AI hero stacks with like 3 mages. Generally an enemy range-heavy setup is not good for the dragon because his killing power is mostly from cycling Charge and doing retaliation attacks.

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Originally posted by donut32:

im playing an ES for the first time this campaign and this thing is straight busted. mind control, hexes, insanity, debuff central, 10 tile cast range to snipe things. then again i only play against the computer so maybe it sucks in MP, couldnt say

The gameplay difference between the different ruler types is pretty rad. Have you tried out Dragon Lord yet?

I find that once you get used to using the Item Forge Champions and WK catch up again. Doubly so as racial transformations may free up item slots for other effects. Example: Eldritch Sovereign cannot get "Control Loss Immunity" without using the ring slot for total status immunity (correct me if I'm wrong). Champion/WK can use Major Angel Transformation to cover "Control Loss Immunity" (and other debuffs with different transformations) to use the ring slot for more offensive purposes.

I actually really enjoy ES with my next campaign likely to be an ES to try out the last signature skill tree.

As before though my intent is NOT an analysis of the Ruler strengths but how ES seems a bit shafted when it comes to Pantheon bonuses... Along with the low variability among ES leading to the most limited Pantheon heroes that way as well.

i did a dragonlord but the AI just hard targeted it every round so it didnt feel very effective. literally every unit would dogpile on the dragon.

Originally posted by donut32:

i did a dragonlord but the AI just hard targeted it every round so it didnt feel very effective. literally every unit would dogpile on the dragon.

Dragons need a bit of babysitting for the early turns. Once you get the second hero, have him take over the main army and let the dragon join fights until he gets strong enough to solo everything.

1. Class: Warrior - Warclaw
Affinity can be anything, just don't take e.g. Chaos Dragon if you want to use Freeze effects (because built-in burning, although you can get Ghostfire later to replace burning)

2. Spec:
https://gtm.steamproxy.vip/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3411149520
So this is a very approximate solo build. I marked the priority in colors:

1=green=top priority
2=yellow=high priority
3=blue=medium priority

Breath is good, but all you need is the Charge Resistance from Materium Aspect. Then you charge into enemies yourself which puts you in defense mode, and let the retaliation attacks do their thing. All in the green lines is mandatory, and stuff like the self-dispel is very handy too but you can't have everything with 19 skillpoints.

PS - and the ultimate meta dragon is obviously full materium, but you can experiment with any combination as long as you have the materium aspect. The example above can also solo everything i've come across.

3. Gear / Race:
Extra retaliation attacks + retaliation bonus damage. Ferocious as racial trait should work too. If you can get a ring of status immunity, this will boost the dragon to another level and you don't need the self-dispel skill (but may not be available before winning the map).

Can other leaders summon mage banes? No they can not.

Are mage banes op? Yes they are.

End of discussion.

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by donut32:

i did a dragonlord but the AI just hard targeted it every round so it didnt feel very effective. literally every unit would dogpile on the dragon.

Dragons need a bit of babysitting for the early turns. Once you get the second hero, have him take over the main army and let the dragon join fights until he gets strong enough to solo everything.

1. Class: Warrior - Warclaw
Affinity can be anything, just don't take e.g. Chaos Dragon if you want to use Freeze effects (because built-in burning, although you can get Ghostfire later to replace burning)

2. Spec:
https://gtm.steamproxy.vip/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3411149520
So this is a very approximate solo build. I marked the priority in colors:

1=green=top priority
2=yellow=high priority
3=blue=medium priority

Breath is good, but all you need is the Charge Resistance from Materium Aspect. Then you charge into enemies yourself which puts you in defense mode, and let the retaliation attacks do their thing. All in the green lines is mandatory, and stuff like the self-dispel is very handy too but you can't have everything with 19 skillpoints.

PS - and the ultimate meta dragon is obviously full materium, but you can experiment with any combination as long as you have the materium aspect. The example above can also solo everything i've come across.

3. Gear / Race:
Extra retaliation attacks + retaliation bonus damage. Ferocious as racial trait should work too. If you can get a ring of status immunity, this will boost the dragon to another level and you don't need the self-dispel skill (but may not be available before winning the map).

it was actually later on that it was a problem when the armies with much larger. early game it was easy because the dragon was so powerful. i played it before this latest redesign though not sure if it was made weaker.

The hero rework massively buffed dragons. They used to be the weakest ruler type with a pretty hefty upkeep and not much to show for it. ES were in a very comfortable spot, so they had very little to no work done on them.

That and one of the devs is a massive fan of dragons, apparently, and he was one of the major factors for the hero rework. So, now dragons are pretty strong, and have all sorts of stuff going on.