Warhammer 40,000: Battlesector

Warhammer 40,000: Battlesector

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zcharles 18 Dec @ 7:09am
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Imperial Guard meltdown recap
'GOOD MORNING GUARDSMEN!
After only 2 days of play with the DLC I have to decide what to do: ask for a refund or wait for an update.
Since we guards are all though men, not like some ♥♥♥♥♥cat marine in invulnerable armour, I'll go for the second.

BG OF ME
Skip this section to spare time, it's to give an idea of who is talking. I'm a second edition player; tabletop and videogaming warhammer since the '90, most of all Imperial Guard. Well now I'm a rebel of a merchan republic on the border of the Empire, I sold my cadians and I have 3 rebel armies, none created with GW models: a british WW2 army for line infantry, a modern NATO army for a mech force, e GW heavily modified catachan army for some good action. Plus tons of modded orks and some army here and there. I don't play WH40k since the pandemic, don't like new rules, I use simplified ones and play mostly 6mm... BUT... I know what we are talking about here. Like 95% of those who write here, I'm a true guardsman in my hearth. On this forum we can all draw perfectly any lasgun pattern. We here are the real guardsmen.

OVERALL VALUTATION
As we all know here, the DLC is really poor; we stubborn guardsmen buy it anyway, but we are talking about a 15 euro DLC; complete game will be more than 100 euros, money that we earn hard working, exactly like you developers: friends, we all know that money is scarce, time is short, the boss is yelling at you, life is a mess etc etc, but you are basically cheating on us loyal guardsmen :) you sell us guard games just to grab our money, we low IQ guardsmen buy it anyway. You know that we know.
So I can't give the game more than 3/10, starcraft and DOW1 were much better for 30 euros, but let's see if we can have at least something decent, shall we guards?
I helped Matrix/Slitherine with the Close Combat series in the past, and I was a CC5 modder - on small scale, nothing like Nomanda Firefox. But I know a little how it works.

WHAT TO DO
Obviously there are so many bugs, so many imperfections, som many signs of cheap work that I'd really like you to make the DLC from zero. I'd like to see so many improvements that they will exist only in my fantasy. So let's keep this as short as possible and focus on what can be actually done. I'll present the main corrections you should apply to some units without changing too much the game mechanics; this could go on forewer, so I'll let other suggestions to other guardsmen.

(A NOTE ON LASER)
Ok men, the developers made it clear: from now on lasers will be non-lasers. Deal with it. As someone wrote here 'We are all wrong, except that guy from GW that decides'. The game is GW propriety, what can we do, call the police? We can only no-to-buy, but we know that we buy anyway. GW is not a democracy. In our long WH experience we saw many horrors: necrons going from terrifying xenology creatures to egyptian puppets with feelings, Dark Angels accepting some stupid clone-marine into their more secret inner circle, Cadians being the main force even if their planet is destroyed, and so on. Get used to it brothers.
Let's say so:
'SOLDIERS! From now on forget your standard lasgun with 30 years of history and all. From now on is WW2 again: ww2 US helmets, ww2 US heavy tanks, ww2 field guns and THIS! WW2 M1 garand lasgun! ACCEPT IT, THATS AN ORDER!'. So we have to assume that a lasgun use laser to heat some gas chamber, then emits an high-energy bolt. That is stupid because a battely is not enough, you need more complex clips with gas, you cannot recharge it on the field, you cannot shot in void, you have to remove those lens from the barrel, and for the second rule of thermodynamics adding a passage to the process decrease the overall energy, but that's it, brothers. Let's accept this, we are the losers here, but we are used to it, we're not ♥♥♥♥♥cat always-winning marines. Move on, soldiers.

HUMAN PROFILE
The profile system is really broken in this game; for example, a Tau infantry should be same as guardsmen with +1 armour; well, it is double health and double armour! This makes a whole mess on all the game. At least make humans HP 40, Armour 3. At least. Fix it as you can in this cheap way, but do something! That's horrendous.

INFANTRY SQUAD
The lasgun is not the man infantry weapon, the main weapon is specialization. On a 10 men squad you had sargent with boltgun, radio operator to boost tactics, special weapon man, 2 heavy weapon men for a total of 5 specialists out of 10, the other 5 probably carry ammo. This need to be reflected in game. You'll never add animations of guardsmen putting away the rifle and taking a grenade launcher, but at least allow the 'grenade' ability to be used without action points (AP 0) in ADDITION to lasrifles, and cooldown 1. Those are GRENADIERES!
For the assault version, make the bayonet to create area of control and to be used also when attacked; in addition add a 'Demo charge' ability (AP 0, cooldown 3, range 1) in addition to lasrifles.
For the normal squad add 'Take Cover!' ability: consumes 4 movement, increase the cover of the squad by 1 point; IF YOU HAVE TIME FOR IT, it would be delicious to make guardsmen go prone.
For the assault squad add 'Pike Wall' ability: consumes 4 movement, the squad greatly decrease the enemy melee accuracy.
Increase las shots, right now they could not kill a naked human running at them all the rifle range. It's pathetic.

HEAVY WEAPONS
Add reloading crew animations for all 3; that's a must, my friends.
If the autocanno shots only 2 times, slow it down BLAM... BLAM... anb add recoil and smoke, but please make its ability to shoot many times working. On my pc it shots always 2 times.
Lascannons: add seriuos recoil and a serious muzzle flash, il looks like a lego stop motion movie right now; it should be like a real ww2 anti-tank cannon ZZZZOOOOOTTTT! And, really, make the bolt faster, it looks a poor ballista shot, scares no one; make it 5 times faster, like ZZZAPP! To look more deadly and 'realistic'. Same for the multilaser.

TANKS
Add standard leman russ as basic, only then add special lemans.
The leman is one of the few WH tanks with tank leader; add an ability 'commander periscope' (AP0, cooldown 3) that increase the detection radius.
Please, add more smoke and blast, both to the gun and to the target. Those look like poor 50mm panzer III guns. This scares no one. We need a gun that BOOOOM and a reciving with tons of smoke and debries. Go watch some Ukraine footage, they have 120mm guns, and lemans have from 120 to 360 depending on who is writing the BG.

BASILISK
Bugs are everywhere in this DLC, but the basilisk... OH GOOOOOD! It's madness. I played 2 days: the tracks now roll on the wrong way XD and in a game it used to shoot 3 tiles further; to correct it i moved the basilisk 3 tiles back and... IT WORKED! Oh Jesus.
Anyway, the vehicle without reloading crew... make it closed, or better remove it and make it shot from aoutside the battlefield!
And the projectile: that is a playmobile cannonball, please. If you can't fix it at least make it invisible.

It could go on forever, but I let more practical suggestions to other guardsmen. Thanks brothers.

Dear developer listen: we know that you have to earn the bloody money, as all we must. But remember your honour, your dignity; respect our dreams, respect the child that is inside every guardsmen's hearth. We are already creating a psy-choir to send nightmares to those GW businessman that never read a good Ballard sci-fi novel in their life, and only think about the next move to steal money to our poor souls. Don't be like them, don't listen too much to them. Listen to us. We are giving money and time. We are the army that keeps all this going. We are the people.

I'm wide open to suggestions.

Thank you very much friends, for the time and all. And let's hope for the best :-)
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
Slithy 18 Dec @ 10:01am 
This sounds terribad. Guess I'm passing on it.
I dont know about all that... I've had fun with the Imp Guard so far.
zcharles 18 Dec @ 12:33pm 
Also with infantry? Did you ever manage to destroy a healty target with standar squads? Me not. Maybe with 4 squads with grenades vs 1 squad. Then 1 surviving ork toss a grenade killing 95% of my squad. We all here have the feeling that talibans were much better with their AKs. Guards fire 3 shots, orks fire more powerful shots like 10 times : (
There are dynamics here about firepower and health that we cannot understand. Feels a completely different universe, with Napoleon Vs Space civilizations.
I think that with guard you can only play as much tanks as possible; this means different game, no re-playability, boring, unbalanced. Even you opponents may be bored by you.
Anyway glad to see that you like it, i think developers really need comments like yours, thanks mate :D
Vesperal 18 Dec @ 2:02pm 
Originally posted by zcharles:
Also with infantry? Did you ever manage to destroy a healty target with standar squads? Me not. Maybe with 4 squads with grenades vs 1 squad. Then 1 surviving ork toss a grenade killing 95% of my squad. We all here have the feeling that talibans were much better with their AKs. Guards fire 3 shots, orks fire more powerful shots like 10 times : (
There are dynamics here about firepower and health that we cannot understand. Feels a completely different universe, with Napoleon Vs Space civilizations.
I think that with guard you can only play as much tanks as possible; this means different game, no re-playability, boring, unbalanced. Even you opponents may be bored by you.
Anyway glad to see that you like it, i think developers really need comments like yours, thanks mate :D

Unfortunately it is a persistent belief that IG are nothing without their vehicles.

What people tend to forget is that IG infantry, when used well, and with the correct combined arms and volume of men, can actually do quite well.

Any source on that "GW guy" claiming lasguns should not be lasguns anymore ?
zcharles 18 Dec @ 2:22pm 
I love guard infantry, mostly cathacians with only some sentinels, like the old '90 codex! And i used to win, no one expected guards to win assaults with flamers and power fists, and no vehicles!

Here is the comment of Hedmund, a developer of this game, on 'Lore breaking Astra Militarum' discussion on this forum:

'The 10th edition codex is the same as our current representation of the Astra Militarum.

We have spoken to GW and the bottom line is, this is not something we can change - all future games featuring the Astra Militarum will use this style. Just in the same way that "Imperial Guard" was phased out, the expectation is that future games will also have the guard use this lasgun style.

We will have a patch coming out very shortly to address many of your other concerns RE: Animation, glitches, etc. We are listening to your feedback and will do whatever we can to improve the DLC so it meets your expectations.

We'll also have news in the near future about the new single player campaign - but please give us a little more time on this - as our new team has only recently mastered the engine left behind by Black Labs.'
zcharles 18 Dec @ 9:56pm 
Another big problem is the lack of good terrain; it makes the game boring.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN
I think wit should be created 'Diffiult terrain' as forest, ruins, where only infantry and walkers can move, and give cover.

BUILDINGS
And closed buildings, pillboxes, bunkers, were only infantry can enter. Can be destroyed as a transport.

TRENCHES
Also much, much more trenches were is possible to take cover and fire.
ecb2 19 Dec @ 6:08am 
Originally posted by zcharles:
Another big problem is the lack of good terrain; it makes the game boring.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN
I think wit should be created 'Diffiult terrain' as forest, ruins, where only infantry and walkers can move, and give cover.

BUILDINGS
And closed buildings, pillboxes, bunkers, were only infantry can enter. Can be destroyed as a transport.

TRENCHES
Also much, much more trenches were is possible to take cover and fire.
+1
Gorwe 19 Dec @ 7:31am 
Originally posted by zcharles:
Another big problem is the lack of good terrain; it makes the game boring.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN
I think wit should be created 'Diffiult terrain' as forest, ruins, where only infantry and walkers can move, and give cover.

BUILDINGS
And closed buildings, pillboxes, bunkers, were only infantry can enter. Can be destroyed as a transport.

TRENCHES
Also much, much more trenches were is possible to take cover and fire.

I mean, these weren't needed for launch factions, but now that AMIG are here? Yeah, having more interesting terrain, garrisonable buildings etc would be nice.
zcharles 22 Dec @ 1:21am 
So, i'll go on with what should be done, in my opinion, to make a good Imperial Guard.
The best evaluation is that of runtv2022 that you find in the main DLC page, but I'll add some more to that.
I'll try to focus on a feasible guard considering its history and present form, without falling into dogma (IT'S ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT AND I WANT THAT!).
Let's consider a little hystory: knowing the past is important first of all to understand the present, and maybe to imagine a little bit the near future.
WH is aroud from so much time that many of us know its evolution, infact we could create a new term, 'Warhammerology' to indicate the game mutations in its successive forms.
I think many of you could find this writing interesting; I could go on for days but will TRY to keep it short.

Let's start first of all with the basic IG platoon structure.
IG (Imperial Guard was the original human army name, changed recently to protect it from copyright breaches... sad) was structured on british WW2 army, both in equipment and organization, with most tools dating back to WW1 (see the MBT, Leman Russ).

TABLETOP BASIC PLATOON
Basic platoon no longer exist, but its rapresentation is kept in modern codices somehow, and Battlesector should also reflect it. Its structure was:
-Command Squad: 5 men: Officer + 4 specialists (radio, medic, special weapons)
-Infantry squad: 10 men: Sergeant + radio operator + special weapon + 2 men heavy weapon + 5 riflemen. This was a perfecg ww2 british squad with a sergeant with sten SMG, a grenade launcher rifle, a 2 men Bren section and other riflemen to carry ammo. Recently was changed to 2 special weapons to allow tabletop players to buy a squad of models and play it as it is, also removing the 3 special weapons veteran squad that does not exist anymore.
-Infantry squad: as above.
So the main force of a basic platoon were:
-the officer leading and boosting the squads via radio.
-the many special and heavy weapons (up to 8)
-the many small weapons upgrades (officer and sergeant with energy and bolt weapons)
-the ability to keep shoting special weapons even if suffering heavy losses - the survivors would pick up the tool and use it.
Rifles were important, but in the end secondary exactly as in WW2 the main tools were LMGs and grenades.

BATTLESECTOR BASIC PLATOON
So in Battlesector it would be wonderful to structure it in a similar way keeping 25 men platoon:
-Increase riflemen to Health 40, Armour 3.
-Increase lasguns to 8 shots.

-Castellan: as it is.
-Command squad: 4 standard riflemen. Abilities:
>First aid (AP1): heals 10% a adjacent squad.
>Radio coordination (AP1): all adjacent infantry sq. get +momentum
>Take cover! (consumes 4 movement): the squad gets +1 stack cover (15%. Animation to go prone needed)
-Rifle section: 8 standard riflemen
>Grenade
>Take cover! (see above)
-Rifle section: 8 standard riflemen
>Grenade
>Take cover! (see above)
-Weapons section: 4 special weapons newly animated men (grenade launcher to be upgraded to melta, flamer)
>Take cover (see above)

The Rifle section could be upgraded to:
-Assault section: 8 riflemen with bajonet, same standard rifle
>Bayonet (should create area of control and respod to melee that now doe not have it seems)
>Spear wall (consumes 4 movement): enemy squads attaching from the front decrease their melee.
>Take cover (see above)
-Engineer section: 8 riflemen
>Proxy mines (AP1): places minefiend in adjacent area
>Take cover! (see above)

Will never happpend, but writing about it keeps me happy :D
Hope you enjoy brothers. My kid is now waking up and I've to feed her, to be continued...
Last edited by zcharles; 22 Dec @ 1:24am
zcharles 22 Dec @ 4:09am 
MORE CONSIDERATIONS ABOUT THE MAIN IG INFANTRY ROLE
The main IG was, in fact, to hold a specific line, usually the starting defensive line. A platoon was able to stop any enemy running at it from medium-distance: light infantry (eldars, tau, humans), heavy infantry (necrons, marines) and waves (orks, tyranyds) of equal points-value had no chance to reach melee contact running down the table, and this was 'realistic', it was 'good to see', it looked 'ok'. Longer distances where even more at guard advantage, since it used the best heavy weapons in the game.
Then what, is that the perfect winnning force?
Of course not. Read on.
Guard was good at holding a line, exactly as british ww2 infantry; all other roles had to be given to other formations; having a guard platoon assaulting an equal-point force was a massacre since modern-day armour was penetrated by almost all future sci-fi weapons; no cover = death guard. Assaults had to be planned with other forces.
And more:
So all other armies had no chance to assault guard positions? Of course they had endless solutions to do so; they could use armoured carriers, air-dropped troops, teleported troops, flanking troops, infiltrating troops. As it should be.

So as said before, this is not happening in Battlesector; cover is useless and any force can assault guard from long range, frontally.
So this is wrong not only considering the warhammer tabletop long history, but also from a 'verisimle realistic' point of view: in warhammer, in Starshiptroopers, in Aliens, in any simulation of modern or sci-fi battle where you may have power armours etc... a force should be not able to assault entrenched riflemen. Never. It generates an impression or wrong events; our brains tells us that something is wrong on that simulation. 'This cannot be' is what any human brain thinks, and avoiding being 'unrealistic' even for sci-fi standards is the first necessity of any simulation.
Hope that with the right balances, this will change quicly, and with them the game scoring.

To be continued...
yeah its bad i played IG in the table top game and infantry were not useless they had overwhelming numbers and special weapons. I knew going in the reviews on this DLC were bad.
Originally posted by Vesperal:
Originally posted by zcharles:
Also with infantry? Did you ever manage to destroy a healty target with standar squads? Me not. Maybe with 4 squads with grenades vs 1 squad. Then 1 surviving ork toss a grenade killing 95% of my squad. We all here have the feeling that talibans were much better with their AKs. Guards fire 3 shots, orks fire more powerful shots like 10 times : (
There are dynamics here about firepower and health that we cannot understand. Feels a completely different universe, with Napoleon Vs Space civilizations.
I think that with guard you can only play as much tanks as possible; this means different game, no re-playability, boring, unbalanced. Even you opponents may be bored by you.
Anyway glad to see that you like it, i think developers really need comments like yours, thanks mate :D

Unfortunately it is a persistent belief that IG are nothing without their vehicles.

What people tend to forget is that IG infantry, when used well, and with the correct combined arms and volume of men, can actually do quite well.

Any source on that "GW guy" claiming lasguns should not be lasguns anymore ?

Feels like the new devs developed IG infantry based on memes rather than tabletop. All infantry IG armies are absolutely a thing in tabletop.
Originally posted by Noodlesocks:
Originally posted by Vesperal:

Unfortunately it is a persistent belief that IG are nothing without their vehicles.

What people tend to forget is that IG infantry, when used well, and with the correct combined arms and volume of men, can actually do quite well.

Any source on that "GW guy" claiming lasguns should not be lasguns anymore ?

Feels like the new devs developed IG infantry based on memes rather than tabletop. All infantry IG armies are absolutely a thing in tabletop.

If you don't embrace the IG flashlight memes, then why even play IG? That's IG tourism.
Originally posted by ♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔:
Originally posted by Noodlesocks:

Feels like the new devs developed IG infantry based on memes rather than tabletop. All infantry IG armies are absolutely a thing in tabletop.

If you don't embrace the IG flashlight memes, then why even play IG? That's IG tourism.
Because while the memes are funny they are neither loreful or fun to play as. Basing your knowledge of the lore off of memes is peak Tourist behavior.
Originally posted by Imperial Jiv:
Originally posted by ♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔:

If you don't embrace the IG flashlight memes, then why even play IG? That's IG tourism.
Because while the memes are funny they are neither loreful or fun to play as. Basing your knowledge of the lore off of memes is peak Tourist behavior.

If Emperor did not want IG to be meme, he would not have included literal meme lore in 3rd edition codex. Most of foundational IG (and 80% of 40k, tbh...) lore sources are based on parodies of various media that was popular at the time (Zulu movie, Frank Herbert, Harry Harrison are just a few examples that come to mind)... in other words, bunch of memes before they were called "memes". Taking it with a straight face is a sure path to damnation.
Last edited by ♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔; 14 hours ago
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