the game lore doesn't make sense, especially in remnant 2 where they introduced the mcguffin segments and mcguffin clementine.
Keep in mind that there are paralel universes and you fight the root "final boss" on root earth as well wich doesnt make sense since it would mean the root originated on earth and there are civilizations much older than humans that were conquered by the root.
Chronos makes sense but remnant 1 lore was shabby as well.
Think of remnant lore as the aliens lore....the more movies/games we get, the less it makes sense.

To be honest, the labyinth keeper seems to be able to reset everything anyway,i dont think he needed the segments for that anyway:)) and there are no repercusions for it.
Keep in mind that everyone has a guardian but no one knows about the labytinth?
Its especially weird for Nerud where their guardian is basically the core

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

I suspect that the Earth of this game is not the same as the Earth in the previous game.

The story of the first Remnant involves the Root manipulating Dr. Harsgaard into letting them in. If the Earth from the first game was the original Core - the one that created the Corruption/Root - where would the Root in Remnant 1's Earth be invading from?

Escrito originalmente por Skeleton:

The story of the first Remnant involves the Root manipulating Dr. Harsgaard into letting them in. If the Earth from the first game was the original Core - the one that created the Corruption/Root - where would the Root in Remnant 1's Earth be invading from?

Monsters from the Id, if I may quote a 70-year-old movie. Obviously, the real answer is "I don't know", since even the Keeper doesn't seem to know. So I can only speculate.



Here's what we know - Earth from Remnant 1 used to be the Core, and is the original point of entry for the Root. In some way, all other worlds are built upon Earth through the Labyrinth. Portals come into existence spontaneously without an obvious governing intelligence causing them to exist, and Guardians appear with them, then the worlds from there.

It's not TOO far-fetched to speculate that the actions of the people of Earth in some way caused those worlds to exist. We know of at least one entity that came directly from the Core and did not spontaneously come to exist - the Root. So there are two options as I see them - either humanity "created" the Root, or the Root came from somewhere outside the cosmos.

This is where "monsters from the Id" factors in. I speculate that the dreamers don't dream of other worlds which predate them, but rather create worlds with their own dreams. The only Dreamer we know of directly is Clementine, and she's shown to have reality-warping powers. She's able to stabilise the Labyrinth, metamorphose the Keeper and even hard-reset the cosmos.

In other words, the Root didn't "come from" another world. They were dreamt up by the Dreamers themselves - potentially directly by Scarsgaard. If I recall the story, it was Scarsgaard who first received the runes necessary to build the first World Stone in a dream - though that bit I'm quite hazy on.

If the Dreamers can create worlds and change worlds on a fundamental level, it stands to reason that they could also create the Root. There has to be a reason for why so many of the larger Root creatures are humanoid and capable of garbled speech.



I'm trying to reconcile both timelines here. In Remnant: From the Ashes, the Root came to Earth first, then spread to other worlds. In that game, Earth is the Core and has no guardian. In Remnant 2, the Root are still spreading from the Core, but that original point of entry is no longer "our Earth". That still exists, but has been sectioned off.

Though the people of the Ward have the perception of continuity, it's pretty clear that their entire world is a duplicate of the Core, as are presumably the people. Root Earth features roughly similar geometry to Our Earth. We visit the area outside the Ward, but find it bare with no sign of ever being occupied - not since before the original Invasion. It seems clear to me that in that timeline, the people of the Ward never made it out. I can speculate that the Root finally dug them out and killed them.

On Root Earth, we make our way through the outskirts of Ward 13, across the bay along the bottom, then to what used to be the Atoll which once held Clawbone's tower. There is where we fight another Root abomination in the hopes of defeating them. At the end, we fail. Clementine does... something to all of the people of all of the worlds, and we reappear at the Ward as though nothing had happened. It's based on all of this that I infer something similar might have happened before.

The only way I can really reconcile this is if the Earth from Remnant 2 is a deep copy of Core Earth from before the Root fully took over, which took a different path. This could potentially have happened as far back as the Clawbone fight, where similar "glitchiness" can be seen.

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

Something about the Labyrinth Keeper never made sense to me, specifically in light of things he said in the previous game. I recall him saying that Earth needs no guardian. The Labyrinth is built on top of it, and all worlds built on top of the Labyrinth.

And yet the first time we meet the Keeper, he speaks of Earth as just another world lacking a Guardian. He speaks about having purged the Labyrinth and contained the Corruption. He even speaks to having returned to a "previous form" when he gains a more humanoid appearance.

For the longest time, this felt like a ret-con, but I was missing an important conversation option. Speaking with the Keeper BEFORE entering the portal to Root Earth and asking where it leads, the Keeper cites it as being "a world not unlike our own" which "was the core, but now isn't".

Given the ending of Remnant 2 and the discrepancies seen here, I suspect that the Earth of this game is not the same as the Earth in the previous game. Though the Wanderer succeeded in killing Harsgaard as Clawbone and unhooking the Destroyer from his dream pod, that entire endeavour ultimately failed long-term. The Corruption - the Root - was contained within Earth, but allowed to run free. Eventually it broke out again and infected the Labyrinth between games.

It seems that at some point in the past, the Keeper attempted to do something similar to what Clem does at the end of the game. That is to say, section off the Core and restore a more manageable copy of it to study. We are no longer in the Core - that is Root Earth. That is what remains of the world from the previous game.



So... what does that mean for the cosmology of this game? I've often joked about the whole game being a simulation in the style of The Thirteenth Foor[www.imdb.com]. However, that does not appear to be the case. The Keeper describes "the people of the core" - those being the human scientists of the first game, like Skarsgaard (what IS his first name?), Andrew Ford and Leto Apostolakis - as seeing existence "as outside of all worlds". Well... they never created the Matrix, we know that much from the previous game.

We do know, however, that humanity from "the Core" was able to observe other worlds through the Dreamers. At first it was thought that those other worlds were imaginary - the dreams of the subconscious mind. Eventually it was discovered that those were real places that humans could actually go to.

If what the Keeper says is true - that the doors are created first along with the guardians, then the worlds on the other side spring forth from that... Does that mean that the original assertion was true? That what the dreamers were dreaming really was just imagination, but in some way given form?

If Earth is the core from which all other worlds spring forth, then that's about the only explanation I have. It would also explain why the Root are not like the monsters from other worlds. They don't see to have been dreamt up before manifesting themselves. Rather, as I recall, it was clawbone's own doing which communicated the means of constructing a Worldstone to humanity first, before the Dreamer Project even began. It's been a few years so I forget the details.



If any of my guesses are true, then this fictional universe might be a lot less throwaway than I thought, and the story a lot less of a mess.

Yeah Root Earth as a whole confused me, I read up on the lore of Chronos but know little of From the Ashes so I'm missing information but even so it had me tilting my head.

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

Yeah Root Earth as a whole confused me, I read up on the lore of Chronos but know little of From the Ashes so I'm missing information but even so it had me tilting my head.

Root Earth seems to have been created specifically for Remnant 2, so you're unlikely to find information on it in the previous games.

I think the biggest curveball in the story of this game is that it's not, technically speaking, a continuation of the story from the prequel. The Earth of Remnant 2 is not the same one from the previous game. The old game's Earth fell fully to the Root and became Root Earth. The Keeper appears to have done a fairly comprehensive system restore, which in some way created a duplicate Earth with a different timeline post Harsgaard.

If I were to speculate freely (i.e. if I were writing this), I might wonder if it actually WAS 20 years since the last game. Time on the various worlds seems to have advanced by about that much, but it's entirely possible those have been restored from backup some time recently. It's possible that far, far, FAR longer has passed between events.

Think of it this way: The original Root incursion on Earth took place over a century before the events of Remnant 2. In that amount of time, the Root had only managed to cripple human society, but came nowhere near total domination. In just the 20 years following, they managed to not only strip the Earth of population but grow trees into orbit. The Keeper also talks about the Root spreading from world to world, infesting the Labyrinth and more.

We also know that worlds can be restored from memory - it's what Clem does at the end. So who's to say that the Root didn't take a few thousand years to nearly wipe out the cosmos, only for Earth and a few others to be system-restored 20 years ago? That's unlikely to be the case, naturally, but everything to do with the Labyrinth and the Keeper introduces uncertainty.

So the Keeper says some additional odd things.

He seems interested in the Corruption - the Root - as a means of discovering his own purpose and nature. He seems to believe (though I may be inferring this) that the same "creator" who made him made the Root. He also seems to believe that "the children of the Core" saw the cosmos "from outside all worlds, the perspective of a creator". Thing is, we know the Core was Earth where Harsgaard, Ford and Apostolakis worked with Dreamers.

The Keeper believes that those people "sought to change the nature of the universe itself". To me, this sounds like he's describing the Dreamer project as humanity's attempt to create other worlds. I think the implication is that that project in some way created the Labyrinth and the Keeper. We know it "led to" the Root, but the Keeper believes that the Dreamer Project CREATED them.

This feeds my suspicion that the cosmos of Remnant 2 is a sort of unintentional simulation, right along the lines of the Forbidden Planet. Humanity accidentally discovers ways to make dreams into reality - as their own worlds. In the process of doing so, however, they accidentally create monsters, as well.

Obviously I'm speculating, but I can't really make sense of it any other way.

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

So the Keeper says some additional odd things.

He seems interested in the Corruption - the Root - as a means of discovering his own purpose and nature. He seems to believe (though I may be inferring this) that the same "creator" who made him made the Root. He also seems to believe that "the children of the Core" saw the cosmos "from outside all worlds, the perspective of a creator". Thing is, we know the Core was Earth where Harsgaard, Ford and Apostolakis worked with Dreamers.

The Keeper believes that those people "sought to change the nature of the universe itself". To me, this sounds like he's describing the Dreamer project as humanity's attempt to create other worlds. I think the implication is that that project in some way created the Labyrinth and the Keeper. We know it "led to" the Root, but the Keeper believes that the Dreamer Project CREATED them.

This feeds my suspicion that the cosmos of Remnant 2 is a sort of unintentional simulation, right along the lines of the Forbidden Planet. Humanity accidentally discovers ways to make dreams into reality - as their own worlds. In the process of doing so, however, they accidentally create monsters, as well.

Obviously I'm speculating, but I can't really make sense of it any other way.

The keeper also admits that there is a possibility that there is no creator, but that possibility concerns him more than anything, or something along those lines. From what I understand is that the root couldn't get to Earth despite its lack of a guardian because it was isolated from other worlds, which changed when humans started messing with world stones. About it being a direct sequel or not, I suppose I wouldn't know, however everyone in the game appears to be older than their From the Ashes counterparts and they at least mention the previous protagonist, now that may not matter because of your previous system restore comment but I'm unsure about that as well.

The keeper says, and I'm paraphrasing here "Where there was one possibility, there are now three." That one possibility Clem chimes in with during the final boss is that the root wins, as there's not really any way to hold it back once its in the Labyrinth, the segments, and by extension The Index allowed for two other possibilities, being able to do a factory reset on the universe, or we defeat the root, the latter of which didn't pan out. Then Clem did...whatever she did. That said, I don't see why it would be impossible for the keeper to to be able to make a back up of one world like Earth I guess?

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

The keeper also admits that there is a possibility that there is no creator, but that possibility concerns him more than anything, or something along those lines.

That is true. It's entirely possible that the Keeper is just... flatout wrong. This game plays with this quite a bit. Characters will say things with authority and be entirely wrong. Mudtooth is a good example, but hardly the only one. So that's a fair point.

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

From what I understand is that the root couldn't get to Earth despite its lack of a guardian because it was isolated from other worlds, which changed when humans started messing with world stones.

Right, I remember that now that you mention it. However, the Keeper's also pretty clear that the Root didn't come from any of the worlds in the cosmos. That's why I listed the only two possibilities I see. Either there's something outside the fictional universe of the game, or else humans created the Root.

Well, I suppose there's also the third possibility that they occurred naturally - as the Keeper postulates. However, I find that last possibility quite difficult to resolve. If the Root "occurred naturally", they would have had to exist somewhere inside the cosmos, but not... anywhere in the cosmos? There's a period of time during which Harsgaard is being influenced by Clawbone without any Root being... really anywhere.

I don't see a way to account for the Worldstones if the Root didn't either exist somewhere or were created by humans, is what I'm getting at.

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

That said, I don't see why it would be impossible for the keeper to to be able to make a back up of one world like Earth I guess?

That's almost certainly what he did with the Core. He says as much in conversation. He quarantened the Core, moved it somewhere (or moved the references to it), then restored a Core copy from back-up before the Root fully took over. This copy is the world that the game starts in.

The reason this can't be done to the cosmos in general is the simple fact that you'd end up with Root in the backup - as is the case for the new Core. The Index was supposed to help with this, as it should have allowed the Keeper to identify all Root entries then either delete them or just exclude them from the backup. This failed for reasons entirely unclear.

It's almost like Root Earth was rushed to meet a deadline and poorly-thought-out :)

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

The keeper also admits that there is a possibility that there is no creator, but that possibility concerns him more than anything, or something along those lines.

That is true. It's entirely possible that the Keeper is just... flatout wrong. This game plays with this quite a bit. Characters will say things with authority and be entirely wrong. Mudtooth is a good example, but hardly the only one. So that's a fair point.

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

From what I understand is that the root couldn't get to Earth despite its lack of a guardian because it was isolated from other worlds, which changed when humans started messing with world stones.

Right, I remember that now that you mention it. However, the Keeper's also pretty clear that the Root didn't come from any of the worlds in the cosmos. That's why I listed the only two possibilities I see. Either there's something outside the fictional universe of the game, or else humans created the Root.

Well, I suppose there's also the third possibility that they occurred naturally - as the Keeper postulates. However, I find that last possibility quite difficult to resolve. If the Root "occurred naturally", they would have had to exist somewhere inside the cosmos, but not... anywhere in the cosmos? There's a period of time during which Harsgaard is being influenced by Clawbone without any Root being... really anywhere.

I don't see a way to account for the Worldstones if the Root didn't either exist somewhere or were created by humans, is what I'm getting at.

Escrito originalmente por Auren Wolfstein:

That said, I don't see why it would be impossible for the keeper to to be able to make a back up of one world like Earth I guess?

That's almost certainly what he did with the Core. He says as much in conversation. He quarantened the Core, moved it somewhere (or moved the references to it), then restored a Core copy from back-up before the Root fully took over. This copy is the world that the game starts in.

The reason this can't be done to the cosmos in general is the simple fact that you'd end up with Root in the backup - as is the case for the new Core. The Index was supposed to help with this, as it should have allowed the Keeper to identify all Root entries then either delete them or just exclude them from the backup. This failed for reasons entirely unclear.

It's almost like Root Earth was rushed to meet a deadline and poorly-thought-out :)

Ah yes, that last part makes more sense, and I guess starting from scratch didn't appeal to the humans, not sure it matters much to the keeper, aside from his attachment to Clementine at that point. But that said we certainly agree with Root Earth, and by extension the ending (the latter at least for me) being unsatisfying. But I do like the lore of this trilogy, and I'm excited for DLC to shed some light on this in a way that can salvage it and hopefully make it satisfying.

Well, presumably there will be DLC to address the ending. That's what Remnant: From the Ashes did with Ward Prime. The story ended on a massive cliffhanger. The development has promised three DLCs (they're already selling them), so we can expect at least that much.

Escrito originalmente por Neyreyan_Youtube:

Think of remnant lore as the aliens lore....the more movies/games we get, the less it makes sense.

No one considers the Prometheus and Alien: Covenant movies canon unless they never loved the franchise to begin with honestly. Most people don't consider Resurrection or even Alien 3 canon.

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

Well, presumably there will be DLC to address the ending. That's what Remnant: From the Ashes did with Ward Prime. The story ended on a massive cliffhanger. The development has promised three DLCs (they're already selling them), so we can expect at least that much.

Good.

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

The only Dreamer we know of directly is Clementine, and she's shown to have reality-warping powers.

My understanding is that Clementine's abilities have nothing to do with her being a former Dreamer, but rather because she was bonded to the Guardian of Reisum, making her a... half Guardian?

We know that Guardians see the Root incursion differently [remember the "Protect the Guardian" minigame?], and naturally have abilities that can repel them. I also noted that the white-gold light seen with her abilities matches that used by the Reisum Guardian.

Of course, that leads to the question "do all Guardians get edit perms for the universe, or was Clementine just *special* somehow?"

Why does the sky in our earth mirror that of Root Earth as soon as we go there?

Escrito originalmente por Skeleton:

Escrito originalmente por Malidictus:

The only Dreamer we know of directly is Clementine, and she's shown to have reality-warping powers.

My understanding is that Clementine's abilities have nothing to do with her being a former Dreamer, but rather because she was bonded to the Guardian of Reisum, making her a... half Guardian?

We know that Guardians see the Root incursion differently [remember the "Protect the Guardian" minigame?], and naturally have abilities that can repel them. I also noted that the white-gold light seen with her abilities matches that used by the Reisum Guardian.

Of course, that leads to the question "do all Guardians get edit perms for the universe, or was Clementine just *special* somehow?"

It might be a combination of being a technical guardian and the Index. Clem belonged to a planet that didn't NEED a guardian to begin with, so it's possible other guardians (or the labyrinth guardian, had it not been killed) could have done what she did, however they could not be taken from their respective planets because they need to protect them. Maybe even her bond with the keeper? I didn't play Remnant: From the ashes so I don't know how she got guardian powers to begin with, but maybe she siphoned off some Keeper juice as well?