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Songs of Syx > General Discussions > Topic Details
VanditKing 23 Jan @ 10:36pm
The Balance of v68
1. Industries generate too little income

Up until the mid-game (~2,000 population), it is extremely difficult to grow a city relying solely on industries. Industries like carpenters, masons, and paper makers do not generate enough income to support the growth of the city.


2, Technologies require excessive research points

In v68, the research points required have increased significantly compared to previous versions. This poses a serious problem for secondary and tertiary industries because research for primary industries must also be conducted simultaneously to supply raw materials. As the per-capita productivity of secondary industries increases, the demand for raw materials also grows.

3. Due to point 2, humans have become much weaker, while Tilapians and Amabians have an extremely easy early game.

When Tilapians and Amavians can generate high profits with minimal research investment through fish and meat production (especially since fish is very expensive), humans are left at a disadvantage. Bread, produced by humans, incurs a loss when exported. Humans must focus on secondary and tertiary industries, but this makes them a very challenging race in the early-to-mid game for the reasons stated in point 2. While humans can benefit from research and education bonuses, sustaining paper production is no easy task.

4.Conquest is still highly profitable, and bank buildings are overpowered.

Bank buildings, which can be built in conquered territories, generate absurd profits. A bank in a tier-4 city can generate 52k/day in revenue, and with a tax rate set at double, it can bring in 104k/day. No amount of labor invested in agriculture or mining can match this level of profitability. Additionally, earning 100k/day is downright excessive when compared to my city, where 300 masons, 150 stone miners, and 50–80 researchers combined can barely produce 30k/day. (On top of that, citizens require services and food.)


5. Considering all of this, v68 creates a vicious cycle where the more players try to generate income through city industries, the worse off they become. The only viable strategy is to build an army, quickly capture a nearby city, and squeeze it for taxes to buy everything you need—becoming a militarized state is the path to victory.

Yes, conquest is fun. But the problem is that reaching 2,000 population without conquest is extremely difficult. A population of 4,000 without colonies is unthinkable.

Once players start buying everything with money, logistics within the city become far too simple. You just need to build import buildings and warehouses in a remote city and set imports to 90%. This is especially disappointing for humans, as designing logistics and city layouts to consistently supply bread used to require thoughtful planning, but now it feels like a trap. My city has reached a population of 2,000, but the more I allocate to agriculture, the greater the losses. All the farms and bakeries have been shut down and left idle, only kept as a backup for emergencies.

While the game remains playable, the inability to create self-sustaining mega-cities (population 5,000+) is disappointing.

The game progresses regardless, so it can't be said that the balance is entirely broken. However, it is deeply saddening that building a self-sufficient mega-city is no longer a viable goal.
Last edited by VanditKing; 23 Jan @ 10:38pm
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
BeheadThoseWhoInsultKane 23 Jan @ 11:32pm 
Originally posted by VanditKing:
1. Industries generate too little income

Up until the mid-game (~2,000 population), it is extremely difficult to grow a city relying solely on industries. Industries like carpenters, masons, and paper makers do not generate enough income to support the growth of the city.

Not sure about 5k, but 2k is 100% fully supportable with local food sources on any standard small river map (unless the layout is borked i guess), without any research invested; the growth is steady as long as you expand the farms and services, pad clothes and furniture up to consumption and maintenance numbers. Margins are different story, and conquest was basically "always" (last 2 patches) like that
Last edited by BeheadThoseWhoInsultKane; 24 Jan @ 1:05am
#1
Doeko 24 Jan @ 12:43am 
The balance is good overall though. Maybe research is a bit expensive and can be scaled down, but it adds a challenge. I think it is good as it is but maybe newer players will struggle more at this setting. Maybe scale it down by 20% and make current setting hard.

Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.

I think the margins are indeed a bit skimpy now, but to be honest making money was too easy before. Now you have to specialise and because you can "unlearn" tech you are also not married to any one industry forever in case you change your mind or you find out you are destroying the market for your export product etc.

I agree with your point about logistics. I think that tribute should arrive at import depots only (this Deliveroo type of tribute receipt is not very realistic as well) and there should be only one import depot per good type (maybe it can scale up if the population count reaches >5k or something to two import depots per good type). The logistics feel a bit casual now.

If by self-sustaining you mean as an autarky I think it is possible but extremely difficult, as it should be. If you work the import/export and invest properly into the right techs etc I think you can make it without conquest.

I can't imagine if you invest in farming and bread tech you would incur a loss if you run a bread empire (i.e. focus everyone on this and then import other necessities) now... did you test this?
Last edited by Doeko; 24 Jan @ 12:53am
#2
VanditKing 24 Jan @ 1:22am 
Originally posted by Doeko:

Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.


I am simply playing the game, switching between different races as I play. But how can you call me a racist? I request you retract that.
Last edited by VanditKing; 24 Jan @ 1:26am
#3
BeheadThoseWhoInsultKane 24 Jan @ 1:43am 
Originally posted by VanditKing:
Originally posted by Doeko:

Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.


I am simply playing the game, switching between different races as I play. But how can you call me a racist? I request you retract that.

It's never stated that you must mix any races in the city, but the efficiency is kinda nudge you to. Of course mono cities will be harder due to efficiency scaling factors.
Last edited by BeheadThoseWhoInsultKane; 24 Jan @ 1:43am
#4
کhurikeŋ 24 Jan @ 2:30am 
I have not enough experience but still i´ll agree with the balance issues. After 600pop i´m always collapsing as a new player. Frustrating. I love the game as much as i hate it.
#5
Vanir 24 Jan @ 2:46am 
1. All industries have the same income. A day of working somewhere is worth 200 denari for the AI. So if their fish production speed is 3, fish costs 200/3 denari at base.
The same is true for every single industry. Stuff like paper makers add the resource cost to the product.

There are still differences due to miscellaneous factors, but nothing fundamentally changed how the industries generate profit in V68.

2. I am not sure about that. This could be an issue of perception. The early production researches are now more costly in terms of manpower, but reaching the final level of a tech is now attainable for all industries. The costs of doing that were standardized.
Some civic researches are a bit more expensive now.

One issue is that labs now have a very large experience boost. While you do get increased efficiency the more you have (similar to the old libraries in a sense), it may be overlooked.

3. If research really is substantially more expensive, humans would be better, not worse. You can not avoid investing in research after all.

4. I will make a note to check the global buildings. Hopefully, we can prevent the ridiculous stacking modifiers from V67.

5. That has not been my experience when I tested. There are some things that can make it appear like that is the only viable choice though, which is definitely not a good thing.
#6
Poolboy 24 Jan @ 4:07am 
Originally posted by Doeko:
Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.
You're supposed to play the game however you like and since the game allows for genocide and slavery, one must assume that playing as a racist civilisation is completely fine.
#7
Doeko 24 Jan @ 4:40am 
Originally posted by VanditKing:
Originally posted by Doeko:

Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.


I am simply playing the game, switching between different races as I play. But how can you call me a racist? I request you retract that.

It's just a game relax, it was a comment made in the context of the game. But as you appear to be concerned, maybe it helps you to know that Harvard studies have already proven that literally everyone is a "racist" (carries a subconscious bias in favor of most often the own or sometimes even another race). So there is nothing to retract as clinical evidence has borne out everyone (>98%), very likely including yourself, is a racist. Me too! Let's not get too triggered about everything shall we?

Originally posted by Poolboy:
Originally posted by Doeko:
Also, "humans will struggle". No, you are the one who struggles my friend. And your racist ideology. The point of the game is to mix the races and to have each do what they are good at, while managing the downsides of having more races in your city as well. To me, it seems like an extra challenge to have only one race in your city.
You're supposed to play the game however you like and since the game allows for genocide and slavery, one must assume that playing as a racist civilisation is completely fine.

Yeah but obviously the mechanics are working against you a lot if you want to have a big city with just one race. Of course you *can* do it, as I said, it's just more challenging.

The only benefit you have for a 100% one race composition is you get no "others" malus (but you can also avoid that by mixing a species the primary species likes) and if you keep them above 66% a full majority bonus.

The combination of humans, dondorians and cretonians for example gievs you a good mix of abilities without any major negative fulfillment issues and no race war genocides in your city as well. Tilapis and Amevians (and Garthimi but who ever considers those buggers) deserve to be a little bit OP, because you also incur more costs from mixing them in.
Last edited by Doeko; 24 Jan @ 4:58am
#8
Doeko 24 Jan @ 4:52am 
Originally posted by Vanir:
1. All industries have the same income. A day of working somewhere is worth 200 denari for the AI. So if their fish production speed is 3, fish costs 200/3 denari at base.
The same is true for every single industry. Stuff like paper makers add the resource cost to the product.

There are still differences due to miscellaneous factors, but nothing fundamentally changed how the industries generate profit in V68.

I really like this concept to be honest, as an economist. However there could be some randomness, maybe more events, that steer prices in a non-equalized direction and give opportunities.

Also I noticed sometimes you can buy cheaper and sell higher to other neighbours especially if your trade network grows a lot. This is a very nice outcome that even though the above is the aim there are still significant enough regional differences. And this type of trade/arbitrage should be possible indeed.

Originally posted by Vanir:
2. I am not sure about that. This could be an issue of perception. The early production researches are now more costly in terms of manpower, but reaching the final level of a tech is now attainable for all industries. The costs of doing that were standardized.
Some civic researches are a bit more expensive now.

One issue is that labs now have a very large experience boost. While you do get increased efficiency the more you have (similar to the old libraries in a sense), it may be overlooked.

3. If research really is substantially more expensive, humans would be better, not worse. You can not avoid investing in research after all.

Indeed very true the human-only player should have some benefits in this regard.

However personally I hate those dandy and overall useless and depraved humans and their stupid wishlists so I have them as my slave caste. I treat them very nicely, but only as they are slaves! And it is unbecoming to be unpleasant to one's pets. Sometimes I emancipate one just to persecute it and execute them so they may remember kindness comes at a cost as well.

Seems like an efficient stratz too.

Originally posted by Vanir:
5. That has not been my experience when I tested. There are some things that can make it appear like that is the only viable choice though, which is definitely not a good thing.

Is it me or is taxation better now (with bankz)? I find myself taxing the regions ratehr than getting tribute where that wasn't the case at all in V67. Maybe it has other factors involved? Either way I did the math and taxation far outweighs the value of the tribute the regions can provide even at import (rather than export) price levels.

Unless I am mistaken this seems like a mechanical flaw. It should be more worthwhile to use the region as input for industry than to directly tax it and import the output goods.
Last edited by Doeko; 24 Jan @ 5:00am
#9
Vanir 24 Jan @ 5:30am 
There is still randomness in the economic simulation. For one, not all empires will produce at the same speed. They do trade with each other though, so the price differences have limits.
Some things are also not considered in the simulation and these things also make it less equal.

For example, currently, AI factions do not pay for logistics. If a recipe demanded 100 units of input with 100 units of output, you would need an army of warehouse workers to move it.
This good would be cheap to buy, and terrible for self-production.

The banks thing is not really intended. The regions should keep pace somewhat with the capital, but the global buildings are probably too effective at the moment.
#10
VanditKing 24 Jan @ 5:58am 
Originally posted by Doeko:
Originally posted by VanditKing:

I am simply playing the game, switching between different races as I play. But how can you call me a racist? I request you retract that.

It's just a game relax, it was a comment made in the context of the game. But as you appear to be concerned, maybe it helps you to know that Harvard studies have already proven that literally everyone is a "racist" (carries a subconscious bias in favor of most often the own or sometimes even another race). So there is nothing to retract as clinical evidence has borne out everyone (>98%), very likely including yourself, is a racist. Me too! Let's not get too triggered about everything shall we?

I clearly demanded that you retract your insult toward me, and you refused. Fine. There is no longer any need for conversation between us.
#11
Sam_ 24 Jan @ 7:23am 
v68 balance is very different to previous patches to me. Regardless of how the numbers actually add up once you reach end game, the overall experience in building a city has been totally up-ended. The pacing of the game is completely different and feels far more frustrating and punishing.

As a early game player, looking at a tech you always bought at 300 pop now being locked behind 300 innovation and 150 knowledge is not a positive experience. I'm at nearly 2k pop and I haven't even upgraded my hearths and wells yet, because the tech cost isn't worth it.

Also the idea that all industries are roughly the same in terms of profit just means the fun has been optimised out of the experience. The choice of what to produce in your city is mechanically meaningless now.
#12
Doeko 24 Jan @ 7:42am 
Originally posted by VanditKing:
I clearly demanded that you retract your insult toward me, and you refused. Fine. There is no longer any need for conversation between us.

:steammocking:
Last edited by Doeko; 24 Jan @ 7:42am
#13
Doeko 24 Jan @ 7:44am 
Originally posted by Sam_:
Also the idea that all industries are roughly the same in terms of profit just means the fun has been optimised out of the experience. The choice of what to produce in your city is mechanically meaningless now.

To the contrary, if it is not more or less the same you get an OP meta that is objectively the best (and thus not a) choice. Now you can choose what you want to specialise in based on all your considerations.
#14
Vanir 24 Jan @ 8:54am 
There are still lots of factors that affect how profitable an industry is in practice, and those change depending on your species, map, skills, diplomatic prospects, and affinity for risk. As I mentioned, not everything is accounted for yet, and there are no plans to make the industries behave always the same.
#15
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Songs of Syx > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: 23 Jan @ 10:36pm
Posts: 16

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